Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

I'm sorry wes,

I asked webdog to consider verses on election. I see your point as on another truth. however..you are right. one needs to look at the whole passage.
below you will find the whole passage...


Eph 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 which he lavished upon us. 9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.


let the reader understand on his own

 

more translation may help.....
Amplified...
Ephesians 1

1PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) [a]at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:

    2May grace (God's unmerited favor) and spiritual peace [which means peace with God and harmony, unity, and undisturbedness] be yours from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    3May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm!

    4Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

    5For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]--

    6[So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

    7In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor,

    8Which He lavished upon us in every kind of wisdom and understanding (practical insight and prudence),

    9Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in [c]Him,

    10[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.

    11In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will,

    12So that we who first hoped in Christ [who first put our confidence in Him have been destined and appointed to] live for the praise of His glory!

    13In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

    14That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it--to the praise of His glory.

    15For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (the people of God),

    16I do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers.

    17[For I always pray to] the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation [of insight into mysteries and secrets] in the [deep and intimate] knowledge of Him,

    18By having the eyes of your heart flooded with light, so that you can know and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance in the saints (His set-apart ones),

    19And [so that you can know and understand] what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength,

    20Which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His [own] right hand in the heavenly [places],

    21Far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named [above every title that can be conferred], not only in this age and in this world, but also in the age and the world which are to come.

    22And He has put all things under His feet and has appointed Him the universal and supreme Head of the church [a headship exercised throughout the church],(A)

    23Which is His body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all [for in that body lives the full measure of Him Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself].
*********************
NASB

1Paul, (A)an apostle of (B)Christ Jesus (C)by the will of God, To the (D)saints who are [a]at (E)Ephesus and (F)who are faithful in (G)Christ Jesus:

   2(H)Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

   3(I)Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in (J)the heavenly places in Christ,

   4just as (K)He chose us in Him before (L)the foundation of the world, that we would be (M)holy and blameless before Him (N)In love

   5He (O)predestined us to (P)adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, (Q)according to the kind intention of His will,

   6(R)to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in (S)the Beloved.

   7(T)In Him we have (U)redemption (V)through His blood, the (W)forgiveness of our trespasses, according to (X)the riches of His grace

   8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

   9He (Y)made known to us the mystery of His will, (Z)according to His kind intention which He (AA)purposed in Him

   10with a view to an administration suitable to (AB)the fullness of the times, that is, (AC)the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

   11also we (AD)have obtained an inheritance, having been (AE)predestined (AF)according to His purpose who works all things (AG)after the counsel of His will,

   12to the end that we who were the first to hope in [c]Christ would be (AH)to the praise of His glory.

   13In Him, you also, after listening to (AI)the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were (AJ)sealed in Him with (AK)the Holy Spirit of promise,

   14who is (AL)given as a pledge of (AM)our inheritance, with a view to the (AN)redemption of (AO)God's own possession, (AP)to the praise of His glory.

   15For this reason I too, (AQ)having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and [d]your love for (AR)all the saints,

   16(AS)do not cease giving thanks for you, (AT)while making mention of you in my prayers;

   17that the (AU)God of our Lord Jesus Christ, (AV)the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of (AW)wisdom and of (AX)revelation in the knowledge of Him.

   18I pray that (AY)the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the (AZ)hope of His (BA)calling, what are (BB)the riches of the glory of (BC)His inheritance in (BD)the saints,

   19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. (BE)These are in accordance with the working of the (BF)strength of His might

   20which He brought about in Christ, when He (BG)raised Him from the dead and (BH)seated Him at His right hand in (BI)the heavenly places,

   21far above (BJ)all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every (BK)name that is named, not only in (BL)this age but also in the one to come.

   22And He (BM)put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as (BN)head over all things to the church,

   23which is His (BO)body, the (BP)fullness of Him who (BQ)fills (BR)all in all.
**************************

DARBY
Ephesians 1

   1Paul, apostle of Jesus Christ by God's will, to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus who are at Ephesus.

   2Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.

   3Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;

   4according as he has chosen us in him before [the] world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love;

   5having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

   6to [the] praise of [the] glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us into favour in the Beloved:

   7in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences, according to the riches of his grace;

   8which he has caused to abound towards us in all wisdom and intelligence,

   9having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself

   10for [the] administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth; in him,

   11in whom we have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will,

   12that we should be to [the] praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ:

   13in whom *ye* also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

   14who is [the] earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to [the] praise of his glory.

   15Wherefore *I* also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which [is] in you, and the love which [ye have] towards all the saints,

   16do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention [of you] at my prayers,

   17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you [the] spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him,

   18being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, [and] what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

   19and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength,

   20[in] which he wrought in the Christ [in] raising him from among [the] dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies,

   21above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come;

   22and has put all things under his feet, and gave him [to be] head over all things to the assembly,

   23which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all:
*************************


ESV

Ephesians 1

Greeting
   1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

   

   To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful[a] in Christ Jesus:

   

   2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

   

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
   3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

   

   11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

   

Thanksgiving and Prayer
   15For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love[f] toward all the saints, 16I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.


all say the same...take your pick

 

That's fine, but in verses 15 through 23, Paul's subject changes from the mystery of salvation and the Church, to the Triumph and Supremacy of the Christ. So there should be a paragraph separation at the end of verse 14 and a new paragraph begin at verse 15. Two unique major thoughts being expressed.

 

James,
Are you saying that you do not agree that verse 12 pinpoints those whom Paul is speaking of as those who anticipated the arrival of the Christ, and not the Ephesians and the rest of the Gentiles?

Are you trying to smother the truth with much posting of scripture?

The truth is Ephesians 1:12 refutes the use of Ephesians 1:5 as proof text for the doctrine of election, if such doctrine is 'general' in its scope.

Can you acknowledge that fact?

 

-- King James
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

-- American Standard
Ephesians 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:

-- Living Bible
Ephesians 1:12 God's purpose in this was that we should praise God and give glory to him for doing these mighty things for us, who were the first to trust in Christ.

-- Revised Standard
Ephesians 1:12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.

-- Simple English
Ephesians 1:12 We were the first to pin our hopes on Christ. This happened so that we could become praise to God's glory.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Ephesians 1:12 chosen to be,
for the praise of his glory,
the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came.

-- Young's Bible
Ephesians 1:12 for our being to the praise of His glory, [even] those who did first hope in the Christ,

-- Darby's Bible
Ephesians 1:12 that we should be to the praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ:

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Ephesians 1:12 so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes - we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ.

-- Webster's Bible
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


None of these translations refer to the Ephesians or any other gentiles for that matter. It could mean the Jews as a people, or as I believe based on other scriptures, It is the Apostles, the elders of the 1st century church.

Poof! another myth vaporized.

 

Wes,
Can't we just get along and believe in the same thing?

 

Not when it is falsehood!

You see that is the reason there is a division such as Calvinism and Arminianism. Some of Calvinism is true, some of Arminianism is true, but there is enough difference between them that they cannot both be all true.

What say you about Ephesians 1:3-12? Does it or does it not support the doctrine of election?

 

OldRegular,

Wrong interpretation of Eph 2:8,9!
The gift spoken of therein is "are ye saved" otherwise that scripture makes no sense at all. The "[it is]" is "being saved". It is not grace, or faith! Grace is an attribute of God that he cannot give, but by which he bounds his behavior toward mankind. Faith is not a gift of God because God has no faith to give to man. ALL knowing and ALL seeing God requires no faith and indeed can produce no faith in himself! He made his Created man with the ability, and the need, to have faith because he did not give man all knowledge, and by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man did not gain all knowledge only that of good and evil.

Scriptures also say, "for lack of knowledge my people perish"...God, and Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen (Hebrews), and Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, Paul! Faith comes to man as the result of man gaining knowledge, Faith in God...Salvation faith...comes by gaining knowledge of God from his Word. The Word of God is the source of FAITH in God!

 

ha ha ha ! I proved my point and you didn't even get it!! lol !!!

When I said WE wes I was talking about me and the APOSTLES! NOT YOU !!! lol !!!

Why did you ASSUME that when I said "WE" you INCLUDED YOURSELF???????

Because the 1st person plural pronoun defines the subject (one who is writing) AND THE ONE written TO (the readers)....

Just like the EPHESIANS! Paul EVERYTIME when using the first person plural is INCLUDING the ones TALKED, WRITTEN TO!!!!!!!!!

You just proved my point and put yourself in a box. Now learn from yourself would you please?

 

Prove your allegations!

 

I all ready did, around 4 times now. Paul included the Ephesians by using 1st person pronouns. You proved it by assuming I was INCLUDING you when I said WE.... lol !

Also your interpretion is WRONG on Ephesians 2.8 and 9.

Unfortunatly, you don't know Greek. The "IT" refers to the "THAT". Both are neuter gender. The "THAT" because it is NEUTRAL refers to the subject that AGREES.

We are saved by GRACE (feminine) through faith (feminine).

BOTH are feminine Wes. The neuter agrees with BOTH so it INCLUDES BOTH. You CAN NOT pick and choose. The THAT is both grace AND FAITH.

So the rendering would be (if you interjected the THAT) would read....

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and THE GRACE AND FAITH is not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Sorry, Wes

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,

Don't reject it Wes. Can't argue against the Greek. Accept what people that know more about the subject have to say.

 

I don't argue against the greek, I simply do not agree with your translation of it, because one's Grace cannot be given to or received by another, and neither can faith.

Why don't you know that?

 

************************************************

Haven't you heard Wes?

With God ALL things are possible!

Why must you keep putting a limit on God.

He can do anything.

He is GOD.

 

************************************************

Haven't you heard Wes?

With God ALL things are possible!

Why must you keep putting a limit on God.

He can do anything.

He is GOD. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't, I look for the evidence that he did! I find none that supports your position!

Why can't you accept the truth?

 

Wes,

If you don't know the Greek than you can not argue against anything said about it. Your argument is vanity and foolishness.

My explanation isn't my opinion, it is the LAW of GRAMMAR! ...


desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

You just don't understand Eph 2.8-9 because it doesn't agree with YOU. You have to submit to IT Wes.

Tell me then. Why did Paul use the neuter for "it" and "That" and put the "grace" AND "faith" in the same gender (feminine)?

Study and give me the reasons of the genders and their renderings or don't bother replying.

 

You assume of course that all of the translations at our disposal are incorrect because of your own understanding of the ancient language.

Your "LAW OF GRAMMAR" does not help you much in understanding Grace and faith, or Salvation for that matter. Under God's grace, you are putting your faith in the wrong thing, the "LAW OF GRAMMAR"!

1. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourself grace is the gift of God?

2. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourself faith is the gift of God?

3. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourself being saved is the gift of God?

There are three cases only one of which is true! which one? Answer Requires scriptural support!

 

Wes,

DONT YOU GET IT ! The neuter forces that it speaks of ALL THREE. I get a kick out of YOU saying "only one is true".... what knowlege of Greek... of even ENGLISH for that matter makes you think you can say that? Why Wes? What rule of Grammer in the Greek says that only one here can be true? You are making judgements without even knowing aren't you? Here at least I give you scholarly instruction on the Greek text and the rules of the subject,verb agreement and you think you can overrule that with a "I think only one can be true" ... Don't you see the pride in that? Does yall cammed out da of Souths? I bet you can make sense out of that can't you Wes... that's the sad thing about it. God gave rules in our grammer for proper communication and meaning. Stop fighting AGAINST them. "THEM" plural thus referring to "the rules" and not God... why because God is singular and rules is plural and them is plural... rules rules rules...

 

Hogwash rc! hogwash!

 

Hello Wes.

That's called understanding Wes.

Applying your rules to this piece of literature we get: Sweet understanding rc! sweet understanding.

john.