Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

Whatever,

That's what I've been saying too, but you have not agreed with me. I have been saying that God did all the work for our salvation, but leaves the choice up to us whether or not we believe.

ONLY those with faith (belief) will be saved, and Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. NO works involved in faith except picking up the bible and reading it and "hearing" the message contained therein. You do that with Spurgeon, Pink, Calvin, etc, why not do that with the Apostles, the prophets the kings etc.

 

What, are Calvinists the ones embracing heresy then?

There are two different and opposing definitions, the one Arminianism (freewillism), and the other sovereign grace. One says man by his merit is the essential cause of salvation, and the other says God according to His purpose and apart from any good or evil in man is the essential cause of salvation. Those both can not be orthodox, if Scripture is to define orthodoxy.

There is an admission that freewillism is heretical.

When fundamental doctrines are agreed upon by various persons are absent the essential definition of the very nature of God, those fundamentals are not representative of the whole counsel of God. Those fundamentals, when separated from the true nature of God, are a false foundation. This idea of essential doctrine, fundamentals, is a cruel hoax that makes different and divergent ideas blend into obscurity.

As I’ve said previous, I can remember when every direction you turned, there was someone preaching about the essentials of the faith. Hold the essentials was the battle cry. But, IMO, there is a problem as I see it. The essential nature of God is left out as regards what is termed the essentials or fundamentals of the faith. The Author of the faith has His attributes left out of what is defined as the essentials of the faith. Therefore man advances to the forefront, man thought to be sovereign over God. Words have lost meaning as man advances in his usurped position of supposed sovereignty over God. The distinction between truth and error is lost, and while there is talk of essentials or fundamentals, the nature of God and so God Himself is denied His rightful place. God is the Author of our faith.

Either Bible words such as, chosen, elect, regeneration, faith, atonement, predestined, etc as they are used in the Bible support Arminian freewillism or they instead support the sovereign grace position. Either man and his merit is the essential cause of salvation, or instead God is the essential cause of Salvation with salvation by grace through faith apart from works, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Popular or not, the word heresy should be used. Realizing some will not adhere with the definition of the word, and others are insulted by the use of the word, there needs to be a decision one way or the other regarding what is true, be that Arminianism or instead sovereign grace (Calvinism).

There is a serious problem with much contemporary thought that ideas expressed must be stated in such a way that all divergent understanding might appear, to some extent, approved.

When words are clearly defined, and Scripture shown to support teaching, the opponents change the subject and speak obscurely, seeking a sympathetic listener. To some men, truth is said to be hidden, but the Bible stands, and has not changed. The Bible is not a neutral book.

1 John 4:19 (KJV) We love him, because he first loved us.

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
July 10, 2005

 

StefanM
I know you and I are not too far apart in our beliefs, but you said,

The correct answer to that question is YES! He would not have created the lake of fire, and revealed (Rev 20:14,15) its use, if it had not been his will to punish people who refuse Him.

We human's do the same thing with our "stuff". We make things, and grow things, etc. All that does not conform to our minimum standards get "discarded" into oblivion. Your Grocery Produce manager culls the bad produce from his produce section. The Dairy manager culls that which is bad or out of date from his wares, The Meat manager does the same with the meat products that don't look, smell, and feel good because he knows they won't sell. And having bad looking stuff on the counters is a real "turn-off" to the customer.

God has his standards too! He told us that we must have faith in God, and especially in His Son in order to be given HIS free gift of Salvation. It is up to us to have that faith! It is not up to God to give it too us, because He has already given us ALL the reasons to have faith in the God-head! Chiefest reason is this, If you lack faith in God you are cast into the lake of fire! Wow what a motivator to obtain and retain faith in God!

That however isn't the reason I have faith in Him, I believe in HIM because He first believed in me. I love him because HE first loved me. We love to be loved, and when we recognize we are loved by someone, we do all in our power to return that love to the one who loves us. God made us to be that way.

 

Apart from faith, no man shall be saved. Faith is a work (John 6:29; 1Thes 1:3; 2Thess 1:11). Works are inner or outward. When faith, prayers, decisions, any work, any merit of man is said to be the efficient cause of salvation, works, not grace, is introduced. Faith is granted on behalf of Christ (1Pet 1:21; Col 2:12; John 1:13; 6:28-29; Acts 13:48; 18:27; Rom 3:22; 9:16, 18, 22; 10:17; 12:3; John 6:45; Gal 5:22; Eph 1:19; 2:8; Phil 1:29; Heb 12:2; Tit 3:5). Salvation is through faith alone, faith granted through grace, the gift of God, and not by any merit of man. Faith is a response of the new birth. Man is saved by grace. {b]By grace ye are saved![/b]

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

That's slightly different than what Tim said:

See, Tim only mentioned what God did for the unbeliever. You are talking about what God does for believers, too. You and I agree that God did all of the work on our behalf, but we disagree on what all of that work consists of, and when it takes place. I doubt I would care what Spurgeon, Pink and Calvin said, or the apostles, prophets and kings, were it not for God's work of grace in my life. It certainly isn't because of any choice that I made.

 

Bob Krajcik said,

Is there some barrier to these co-existing in the body of Christ? If yes, is that barrier in your mind only? If it is, how did it get there? You had to learn it from the teachings of another! There is always the opportunity that what the teacher teaches is not what the student receives...especially when scriptures are taken out of their context to establish a teaching.

The way I see it, in God's sovereignty he has given man free will to chose between Himself and evil. Those that choose him are "set free in God the Son" those who choose evil remain prisoners to their selfishness, and everything that entails.

 

Because Scripture says "...a work of faith" doesn NOT mean faith is a work, rather a work due or because of one's faith. You do not prove faith is a work by the verses you give. According to calvinism I thought faith is a gift? If faith is a gift, how can it be a work too? Ephesians 2 explains very clearly the difference between faith and a work and how we are NOT saved by works, but by faith. Faith cannot BE A WORK!

 

Paul specifically excludes faith from works in the following verses:

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

 

I would not disagree with your statement. I didn't what you think I meant. I meant that it was not God's primary will to punish people. He did not create people to punish them. He wants repentance, first and foremost. Nevertheless, he has allowed humanity to refuse him, which necessitates punishment, which is his will.

If I worded it incorrectly, I apologize, but this is what I meant:

1. God desires all to repent, so God does not want to punish people for the sake of punishing them. He'd much rather have them repent.

2. Some still chose not to repent. God would prefer to have these individuals repent, but since they do not, it is God's will that they be punished.

 

One note: in the matter of "what is grace" versus "what is works" we must remember that Paul was from a Jewish background.

The idea that faith itself is a work seems to be quite foreign to the Jewish culture, IMO. Works seem to be more in line with following the Law, doing good deeds, etc. How can both these things and faith itself be considered the same?

 

StefanM,
With all of your post in mind, it was that one sentence and the answer you gave that drew my attention. I do not hold the view that you expressed so I commented on it. Otherwise, I believe we are mostly in agreement.

 

Bob krajcik,
You are quite simply wrong about John 6:29, 1 Thes 1:3 and 2 Thes 1:11. These verses do not define faith as a work.

John 6:29 in particular defines "God's work" being that we have faith in God the son, not that faith is the work.

2 Thes 1:11 speaks of the works that are the result of faith.

1 Thes 1:3 Speaks of "the Faith", as being the Christian faith, not an individual's faith in God. The Christian faith is not a work, nor is an individual's faith.

That's 3 scriptures you are dead wrong about!

 

Those passages contrasts the works of faith with the works of the law. We are saved by grace, not by works.

It should take little explanation to understand believing in Christ is a righteous act, and that a faith without works is dead. Dead faith is not the faith of believers.

Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

As I see it, all these things about election, regeneration, faith, atonement, as shown in many passages of Scripture must be explained away to allow man to be sovereign over God regarding salvation. As long as election is denied, the other parts will not fall in place. Clearly, election is the central point in solving this dilemma of whether salvation be of man’s merit, man’s righteous decision being the essential point regarding salvation, or instead God’s election, His people chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth. Either man is able to understand the things of God and work the works of God apart from first being regenerate (Rom 3:11; 1Cor 2:14; John 3:7), or instead man must first be born of the Spirit of God with a lively faith being the response of regeneration (John 1:13; Rom 9:15-16, 18, 21).

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Because Scripture says "...a work of faith" doesn NOT mean faith is a work, rather a work due or because of one's faith. You do not prove faith is a work by the verses you give. According to calvinism I thought faith is a gift? If faith is a gift, how can it be a work too? Ephesians 2 explains very clearly the difference between faith and a work and how we are NOT saved by works, but by faith. Faith cannot BE A WORK! [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]John 6:29; 1Thes 1:3; 2Thess 1:11

John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 (KJV) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11 (KJV) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

As I understand this, those verses certainly do prove faith is a work, and further, faith is a gift, granted on behalf o Christ.

Those dead to the things of God have no faith in Christ (1Cor 2:14). That is why the new birth is essential. Under the economy of grace, the objects of salvation are not chosen by partiality, as if man must do something to be chosen, but instead, man is chosen, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Men might think to have a say, as if they were the deciding one, as if man is central regarding determining the identity of those saved, as if God would be partial to them because of faith, but instead, God is central and God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy on some of every sort of person, whereby as many as were ordained to eternal life shall be saved by grace through faith (Acts 13:48), faith of the operation of God. Faith is defined as the work of God (John 6:28-29); i.e., faith is of the operation of God. Beyond the fact that faith is granted on behalf of Christ (Phil 1:29), faith is a work. Faith is contrasted with the works of the law, but nevertheless, faith is a work. Such things are spiritual and so counted as foolishness to the natural man. First, one is ordained to eternal life, then one believes, on behalf of Christ (Phil 1:29; Acts 13:48). There is no faith, unless a man is first born again, of the Spirit of God. There is no fruit of the Spirit apart from the Spirit. Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and is accompanied by works (James 2:24-26)

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Acts 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 6:28 (KJV) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith is of the operation of God, i.e., granted on behalf of Christ

Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Salvation is by grace, through faith. As it has been said many times previous, apart from faith, no man shall be saved. Works are inner or outward. Faith in Christ is an inward work. Such faith certainly is distinguished from the works of the law, but it is nevertheless a work. We are saved through faith, and we have faith by grace (Acts 18:27; Rom 4:16-21). Not all men have faith (2Thes 3:2), and those that do are granted that faith according to the measure God grants (Rom 12:3). Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and not all men have the Spirit (Rom 8:7-10). The carnal mind of the natural man is at enmity with God, and so not subject to the work of God (Rom 8:7-9; 1Thess 1:3; 2Thess 1:11). Our faith is accomplished by God working (John 6:29), and when we are granted that faith the result is our working (John 6:28).

Romans 8:6 (KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Faith is granted His people and so is said to be faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12). To see what the Bible has to say about faith being granted on behalf of Christ see the following verses: 1Pet 1:21; Col 2:12; Acts 13:48; 18:27; Rom 12:3; Gal 5:22; Eph 1:19; 2:8; Phil 1:29; Heb 12:2

I hope you will use Scripture to show your argument against what I have said. Scripture is the basis of testing faith and practice.

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Romans 11:6 (KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

 

James 2:26 - "Faith WITHOUT works is dead".

"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24

James shows that Faith is not WORK!! If it were work then there is no such thing as "Faith without work" for that is "work without work"!!

James makes the OPPOSITE point in James 2. He declares that faith IS NOT work and that IF it is not acccompanied by work it is worthless for man is NOT justified "by faith alone" in James but rather by faith that WORKS - that has WORK pefecting it!

Yep - that is James!! (not me).

So try not to shoot the messenger.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yep,

And saving faith is a gift from God.

 

Explain how!

 

Bob Krajcik ,

We are not saved by grace! We are saved by a Gracious God through our faith in Him! Grace is impersonal and powerless to save! If God is Gracious, he is Gracious to the righteous and unrighteous alike, therefore if it is grace that saves, ALL ARE SAVED and that is universalism! ARE YOU A UNIVERSALIST?

Believing produces no units of work. It takes no ergs to believe. To make it clear to you what I am saying, I provide you with the definition of ERG which is a measure of work.

As you should be able to see, believing expends no ergs, therefore there is no work in believing! Thus faith cannot be A WORK! Though many do struggle with believing in God, it is a struggle with acceptance, and not believing. One must first accept that there is a God before one can believe in God!

Bob, I think I can accept your definition of believe as being an ACT, because its result is a change in human persuasion. I do not accept that believing is either righteous or unrighteous. It is merely a state of being, a condition, a persuasion. It is what one does with one's beliefs that is either righteous or unrighteous.

Is there even the tiniest possibility that man can be sovereign over Creator God? NOT A CHANCE in eternity. So why do you think in such terms? All that does is show that you have no understanding of God! Man has absolutely no control over God in any circumstance!

However, God in his infinite wisdom has given to man a choice. He says, I have placed before you life and death, choose life! It is therefore, incumbent upon man to make a choice! If as you say, God regenerates man without man's knowledge or willingness, then God takes the choice of life and death away from man! I see the possibility of God doing that nowhere in scripture!