Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

Oldregular,
Do you say then that Peter had faith when he said those words? Why then, shortly after that, did Peter deny the Christ three times? You do not deny that which you place your faith in, else you deny your faith! Jesus knew that when He told Peter that he would deny Him thrice. Peter also disavowed that he would.

Peter had knowledge based upon his experience with the Christ. It was his head knowledge that was given to him by the Father, just the same as it is given to each of us through the word of God!

That head knowledge is what we base our faith upon! Jesus is revealed to us through the word of God! Whether or not we have faith is within ourselves. Faith is not given to us from outside of ourselves.

"For lack of knowledge my people perish", God.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God! It is not given!

 

W
There are two different and opposing definitions, the one Arminianism (freewillism), and the other sovereign grace. One says man by his merit is the essential cause of salvation, and the other says God according to His purpose and apart from any good or evil in man is the essential cause of salvation. Those both can not be orthodox, if Scripture is to define orthodoxy.


By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio
July 10, 2005 </font>[/QUOTE]This shows a man who is really not worth responding too. This whole statement, let alone the rest of his post is so full of strawmen and is only put forth by a man who has blinders on. Blinders handcrafted by J. Calvin.

No one that I know of is saying it is his own merit. Again he is redefining terms or is not listening. No one is saying that God is not soveriegn but one IS saying or telling God how He is to be soveriegn if He is to be God. HOw silly. We all know God is soveriegn, I just chose to let God be soveriegn the way He wants to be.

 

Yep - that is James!! (not me).

So try not to shoot the messenger.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Pardon me for just posting a cheer but Bob you ought to write a book. You are a great calvin slayer.

 

Saying it? Of course not. This is an inconsistency in Arminianism that they go to all extremes to evade.

There is a choice. That choice is by definition an "effect". All "effects" have a "cause".

We aren't talking about a "call" or an "offer". We are talking about the "choice" to accept or reject. The choice is either predicated on the goodness of God or some goodness in man independent of God.

If the goodness "in man" came from God then you must admit that the specific "goodness" that caused the right decision was designed and planned by God to have that effect on each individual.

You can attempt to dance around this all you want but ultimately salvation is a "good choice" by man that is caused by something... our debate is about what that something is.

So God's ability to be sovereign is predicated on your choice also?

 

Explain how! </font>[/QUOTE]Indirectly it is.

God quickens the dead spirit. The regenerate spirit has a new nature. Saving faith by the free choice of this born again person is a direct manifestation of regeneration.

 

There is no challenge from such vain talkers. If there is error, then it should be identified and the true words shown, from Scripture. That would be a help for all, but instead there is just huffing. See how the opponent blusters, but when it is time to battle, there is no Sword (Eph 6:17), nothing of substance. They huff and puff, but deliver nothing but empty and vain accusations. Nothing at all to support the charges he makes, just clouds without water. It is as if carnal feelings were the rule for their faith and practice.

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

The opponent has no use of the Sword!

Eph 6:17 ...the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

By Grace Ye Are Saved!

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Explain how! </font>[/QUOTE]Indirectly it is.

God quickens the dead spirit. The regenerate spirit has a new nature. Saving faith by the free choice of this born again person is a direct manifestation of regeneration. </font>[/QUOTE]That does not explain how, either directly or indirectly.

Now tell me how faith is a gift from God!

How does God give us faith?

Can I touch, smell, taste, or hear faith?

I know that I can speak faith because what I speak of is MY FAITH!

Can you pick up faith or lay it down?

If God gives you faith, can you give me some of it?

Just how does God give you faith?

What is faith anyhow?

You see, you haven't enlightened me one jot or tittle with your triteness!

You ignore the truth when you say that a person must be regenerated before they can have faith! Some of the most vile persons I know have faith! And I can tell you straight up, they have not been regenerated! Of course their faith is in "other gods", but nevertheless it is faith!

The only difference in their faith, and my faith is the OBJECT of the faith! Mine is in the Lord God, Jehovah! Their's is in money, position, real estate, etc.

Furthermore we came to have our respective faiths in the same way, and that is by knowledge. They believe in what they know, what they learned from books and others who taught them. I believe in what I know from the Bible, and from Sunday School teachers and preachers, Persons who know and walk with God, etc.

I don't know a single person who received faith as a transferable commodity given from one being to another. If you do, then that person did not get it the biblical way!

 

The opponent has no use of the Sword!

Eph 6:17 ...the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

By Grace Ye Are Saved!

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

</font>[/QUOTE]Don't give me that trite nonsense! I'm not your neighborhood moron!

Tell me exactly WHAT Grace is, and HOW it saves! If you can't do that, then YOU DO NOT KNOW what you are saying, and you are merely spewing false dogma! Repeating the words that someone else said, the meaning of which you haven't a clue! Stop wasting our time with your sanctimoniously vain repetitions!

IF, on the other hand, you do know what grace is, and how it saves, you have my undivided attention....and the obligation to tell us all!

 

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

False dogma?

 

Do you know what Grace is?

Do you know how it saves?

If the answer to either of those simple questions is yes, Please Explain in detail exactly what Grace is and How it saves!

If the answer to either is NO! Then you have nothing to contribute, go away! You are not providing anything new, you are merely being a noisy parrot!

 

Explain how! </font>[/QUOTE]Indirectly it is.

God quickens the dead spirit. The regenerate spirit has a new nature. Saving faith by the free choice of this born again person is a direct manifestation of regeneration. </font>[/QUOTE]That does not explain how, either directly or indirectly.

Now tell me how faith is a gift from God!

How does God give us faith?

Can I touch, smell, taste, or hear faith?

I know that I can speak faith because what I speak of is MY FAITH!

Can you pick up faith or lay it down?

If God gives you faith, can you give me some of it?

Just how does God give you faith?

What is faith anyhow?

You see, you haven't enlightened me one jot or tittle with your triteness!

You ignore the truth when you say that a person must be regenerated before they can have faith! Some of the most vile persons I know have faith! And I can tell you straight up, they have not been regenerated! Of course their faith is in "other gods", but nevertheless it is faith!

The only difference in their faith, and my faith is the OBJECT of the faith! Mine is in the Lord God, Jehovah! Their's is in money, position, real estate, etc.

Furthermore we came to have our respective faiths in the same way, and that is by knowledge. They believe in what they know, what they learned from books and others who taught them. I believe in what I know from the Bible, and from Sunday School teachers and preachers, Persons who know and walk with God, etc.

I don't know a single person who received faith as a transferable commodity given from one being to another. If you do, then that person did not get it the biblical way! </font>[/QUOTE]I have not read all of this tread..but only the last few pages. But if i may..i would like to anwser this post.


Faith is an emotion. We get this from two other emotions..love and hope. Hope (elpis) is favorable and confident expectation. Where do we get this favorable expectation? We get it from Love. When we study this from mans side, It will always come back to love. The Bible says..faith, hope and love...but the greatest of these is love.

So what is love?

Love (agape) to express giving of all yourself to the love object without expectations of anything in return.

ok but that is textbook ..what does this mean?

Well emotions are memories we draw on from experiences we have known. Let me explain. A kid has no fear of playing in the street because he has no thoughts of a car running him over. Once a kid knows of the danger..the emotion of fear sets in. A kid does not fear that a stove will burn till he know what a burning is. This may have come from a stove or a candle, or any hot thing. A parent needs only to remind the child...remember what the hot light felt like?..well the stove is much hotter. This memory brings fear of the stove.

Why do i love peanut better? I love it because i have tasted it. Be fore i tasted it...i had no love for it. I love basketball for i played the game..watched the game....and know how fun it is. Loving it..means i have had time to experience it. I love my wife for i think of what we have been though...good and bad...but its the memories that bring the love emotion. At 1st my love for her was only of good things. But as my love grow i see love in the good and bad. In the good things..that is easy to see. In the bad..its making it though together. that is what builds our love.

Ok..what does this have to do with anything?

well lets go forward with this thought now.

Where is your love? James says...where you have your love..that is where your actions are. I played basketball..because i love the game. Its not always easy. I brake bones..get very sore...but all this is worth it...for i do love the game. I love my wife...not that every day is full of roses...but any bad is worth going though...to get to stay with the one i love. Love is what drives us. Loves makes us go forward..no matter what. Your love for God will produce favorable and confident expectation to see that love again.

What i know of my wife...what i have lived...what i have loved in my wife....i hope to see again. A favorable and confident expectation is hope. How much more can i say i love my God. What I know God has done for me....the love i know he has given me....the new life He gave for me...the pain he went though for me...the sin he saved me from...the blessings he gives...the comfort that comes from him....this is all LOVE i want to see more in my life. We know of no true love till God shares His love to us. I have favorable and confident expectations of Gods love. This is when I have place my hope in God.

If we take both love our base word...and add hope or our expectation..this produces faith where our drive is. Our love...Our hope..all that we drives us...lives in our faith. Where is your faith? I HOPE it is in God.

So...faith is an emotion but it comes from God. We can know better the Faith we have if we look at where our love is. God gives us our love. yes we can touch it...when we use His love to care for others. We can feel it just as we feel love. it is real...for it is seen in the love we have for Him.

Love comes from God..as does hope..so faith comes from God


In Christ..james

 

Do you know what Grace is?

Do you know how it saves?

If the answer to either of those simple questions is yes, Please Explain in detail exactly what Grace is and How it saves!

If the answer to either is NO! Then you have nothing to contribute, go away! You are not providing anything new, you are merely being a noisy parrot! </font>[/QUOTE]humm lets show some of this grace brother.

i'll reply to this if you would like to hear from a horse. I'm not a parrot....so you may not want me to reply. i'm a horse. No wait..can i be a bear? yeah..that is what i want to be...a bear.

anyway..just playing with ya.

In Christ...trigger ..wait i mean...yogi bear

 

The above words are for my sake. I need reminding.

There are those that do not agree with some of my conclusions. That is fine, for while men can help others to understand things, the man must understand them for himself. God opens the understanding. Scripture compared with Scripture is the path that should be taken, I think, to better understand the things of God. Sharp words expressing displeasure are not much help, IMO, especially if there is nothing given to support a different understanding. There is the matter of works of faith (John 6:28-29; 1Thess 1:3; 2Thess 1:11), that some do not understand the way I do, and that is fine. I have defended what I have said, and am willing to look at the evidence again, but I find no reason to discount what I have said, especially if what I have said has not been dealt with. Dead faith is just that, but living faith has work. I am convinced, faith in Christ is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and so not natural to man, but is instead supernatural faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12). There has been nothing that I have seen to make me reject that. Those that simply say, “Wrong” without dealing with what I have said give me nothing to work on. Not dealing with what I have said, but instead going a different direction is not the same as dealing with what I have said. There is also the matter of faith being of the operation of God, granted us, as repentance is granted to us. Faith is granted His people and so is said to be faith of the operation of God (Col 2:12). To see what the Bible has to say about faith being granted on behalf of Christ see the following verses: (1Pet 1:21; Col 2:12; Acts 13:48; 18:27; Rom 12:3; Gal 5:22; Eph 1:19; 2:8; Phil 1:29; Heb 12:2)

Precept Must Be Upon Precept
http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/lineuponline.htm

Romans 11:6 (KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

James, you are showing more patience and grace than I am.

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

 

Nice try Jarthur001, But you did not get to the root of faith!

 

Cute Jarthur001, but you did not even touch on Grace in your post to me.

 

nor did i try wes. i brought a joke where i thought things were getting out of hand.

 

Bob Krajcik,
Matthew Henry is right, but you have not once answered the mail!

It is you who stands on the rooftop and shouting the words "Grace saves us" (which you are parroting), but you don't have a clue as to how grace does that or even IF grace does that! You are a sounding gong, a clanging cymbol, you don't know why you make sounds, you just make them because some one has struck you with a mallet to cause you to vibrate thus emitting sound. The same sound every time every time you are stroked!

And you don't seem to understand the rudementary definition of faith or where it comes from. You should not engage yourself in debate when you don't know the basic essence of terms that you are debating!

 

nor did i try wes. i brought a joke where i thought things were getting out of hand. </font>[/QUOTE]The only thing that is out of hand is the lack of response from those who are making claims the cannot back up!