Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

study to show yourself approved...take what you see... make sure it lines up with the Bible...if it matches..great. this does not mean i was right. this means the bible is right.

if it does not..chuck it. This is my views. I match them with the Bible...but Whatever you do..do not follow me if you do not see this...nor anyone else.

Go with Gods word. I feel i can show this in Gods word with what i wrote.

you do not...hey chuck it wes.
post your views based on the bible.

 

nor did i try wes. i brought a joke where i thought things were getting out of hand. </font>[/QUOTE]The only thing that is out of hand is the lack of response from those who are making claims the cannot back up! </font>[/QUOTE]ok wes..ask me. let me give it a try. not sure i can help...but i will try

but do not look for a come back. I'm not into a war..or playground debates. I'll share what i know from the word.

so..go for it..your 1st point is?

 

Wes,

As i said before..i only read a few post before i post my 1st post. I didn't know the full tread. What caught my eyes was the "what is faith?...can you touch faith" part. This is why i jumped in..for i think i know what faith is.

Now that I'm into the debate...i went back and read most of the other post...just to see how we got to ask..."what is faith?". I see now that this is your main point.

you claim we have faith before we know of God...is this right? if so...i will share my views. is that fair?

if this is not your point...please share so i may address your point. I do not want to over look your point as you seem to think i have done.

i'll wait..as you answer

In Christ...James

 

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

John 3:7 (KJV) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 1:13 (KJV) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

Are you having some difficulty? I hope you are doing better soon. While I am somewhat concerned about your actions here, I am not going to reply to your questions as you are missing what I have been saying. You need not agree with what I say, but at least there should be some understanding of what I have been saying before moving foreword.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

There is no challenge from such vain talkers. If there is error, then it should be identified and the true words shown, from Scripture. That would be a help for all, but instead there is just huffing. See how the opponent blusters, but when it is time to battle, there is no Sword (Eph 6:17), nothing of substance. They huff and puff, but deliver nothing but empty and vain accusations. Nothing at all to support the charges he makes, just clouds without water. It is as if carnal feelings were the rule for their faith and practice.

It is a joy to serve the Lord!

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

</font>[/QUOTE]Bob there can be no debate let alone scripture if the person you are debateing is dishonest and will not listen because his training has not prepared him to answer honestly. Therefore it is build the strawman, and tear it down, ignore what is actually said or change and redefine terms.

If a calvinist wants to debate me on honest grounds and not tell me what I said but listen then I will take the time. A perfect illustration you and scott have just provided. Both of you haven't the slightest clue how to deal with someone who does not fit your strawman boxes.
And one more thing, can you talk for yourself or do we need to turn this into a cut and paste debate? I care not what your silly heroes or teachers have to say, what about you? Do you have a thought or your own? HOw do you interpt scripture?

 

So God's ability to be sovereign is predicated on your choice also? </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely not Scott, it is by His word though. Something that calvinism falls way short of. If God told Moses (which HE Did) to speak to the rock and instead Moses resisted, disobeyed God and struck the rock does that mean that God is not soveriegn? No We both know that He could have made him. But He chose not too. Guess what His will was still done, water came from the rock. Now a calvinist would say that that God is weak because He allowed man to make a choice, I say let God decide how He wants to be soveriegn. And He always is because He decides.

 

ONE numbered verse taken out of its context of three chapters, and you want divine truth revealed by it.

So the truth that we get from it is that were dead in sins even though we live our full natural lifetimes. We have been quickened together with Christ. Quickened meaning that we are now alive with Christ.

What an amazing turn of fortunes, from dead to alive through grace...Divine doctrine established, who needs the rest of the scriptures? Surely there is nothing that can surpass that doctrine.

Now about my questions. You do not have honest answers to those questions because YOU do not think things through. You are contented be a parrot, and repeat what other's have said without finding out and knowing for yourself.

God said, For lack of knowledge my people perish!

Why would God say that if Grace is what saves, that is, keeps from perishing. Does grace trump knowledge? Or does knowledge do its function while grace is present?

For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH. Faith (in God) cometh by hearing (gaining knowledge)and hearing (the gaining of knowledge) by the word of God (the bible tells me so).

But alas, we find ourselves in a very confusing situation here. You say that God gives (transfers ownership of) faith to regenerated man only. You even say that God gives (transfers ownership of) grace, and that it is grace is that saves man.

If Lack of knowledge is what God says causes his people to perish, why doesn't God just give his people knowledge?

Oh, but he does, it's called the "Word of God", the same place that man gets faith from.

So Bob Krajcik, how does grace save?

 

The Calvinist doctrine says that we are saved by Grace. I want to know how that is accomplished. What are the mechanics of saved by grace?

Calvinists doctrine says that man cannot have faith without "God give him the faith". I want to know just how that is accomplished, what are the mechanics of "faith is given"?

Calvinists doctrine says man cannot be born again unless God first regenerate the man. I want to know HOW that is accomplished, just what are the mechanics of regeneration before faith?

If you know the answers of HOW GRACE SAVES, HOW WE GET FAITH, and HOW man is REGENERATED before faith, Please tell us all!

 

A look at Grace.
Lets look at the Bible. I’m sure you do not want a textbook view...this is my views and comes from the Bible. I hope you do not mind me clipping from my other post. I am a bad typer..and this saves time for me. Below you will find my views as on Grace as i read the Bible.

mans state..

romans 9 11-20
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, a man, to answer back to God?

A rhetorically question
do you believe the bible?
yes..i’m sure you do.

As you read above please notice this. Paul shows God does not use His sovereign arbitrary power as some state He would, if man had no freewill, but rather in MERCY he chooses.

Also notice man does have responsibility. Paul covers this too when he says..”Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

In other words even with God is in control...God can still find you a fault for not following Him. We still most witness. We still most do as He comands.

Let me add. There are some that try to misuse this passage mainly around the "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." part.

Before someone reading this thinks God is unfair..i give you this verse

romans 11
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"

part of this is from Isaac..
this is an rhetorically question also.....who can know the mind of God?
the statement of truth is, no one knows His mind

There are many verse like this that shows God In full control...mixed with Mans need to choose God.

Now as to ..non posse non peccare

Man can not choose until God reaches out to him. Why? I feel that is because man is Dead in his sins. Look at what happened in your salvation story. I have not heard this story..but if you are saved..then it is very close to all others. I start with this for salvation is a relationship with God. You know better then any other man what happen to you. No need to share...just think about it as we look at grace.

1st..what were you saved from?

Man is spiritually dead.
Our Lord spoke the religious leaders and asked this rhetorically question himself.

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

He was not say that were physically deaf, but rather spiritually dead. They could not understand what he was saying.

next look at john 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

The lost can not receive the Holy Spirit at his own will. The holy spirit is given. The unsaved does not know Him.

next...back to romans 8: 7-8

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The mind of those in the flesh. This is talking of the unsaved. You can read the rest of the passage and see this. The mind is hostile and CANNOT follow him.


next 1 cor. 2:14

14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The lost can not understand.
also look at romans 3 on this

OK. We have just seen that the lost do not hear the word, receive the Holy Spirit, nor submit to Gods law, and does not understand biblical teaching, nor can he cease from sinning. Man is Dead in the things of God


Pelagius and others had concern as you have. Can a person be responsible if he or she is not free? Does it mean that a person is a robot or programmed by God, if he is denied free will?

the Bible says that anyone that will come to Christ will be saved. and again...

jesus said..if we come to him..he will in no wise cast out.

This is ture..as are all the other verses you posted. But that is not the point.
certainly any one that wills..ANYONE that wills...may come.

But who will come? NNE will come, unless God reaches out and shows His Love 1st

Let me say it is wrong for someone to use the verse...”no one comes to me unless the father who sent me draws him” and say that man has NO will at all. Man does have a will and can chose many things. But mans will is bond/bind to spiritually things.


Sinners are not sinners because they sinned. Sinners are born sinners. I was born a sinner. You too was born a sinner. You are a sinner before you sinned. You didn't make sin, nor did you make evil. You choose sin, it was there.

Now let me back this up

What most call the “original sin is not when sin was formed. Nor is it really the 1st sin. The 1st sin was when satan choose to lift himself above God. This made sin and also known as “sin principle”. The sin principle is set agains God as a system of evil.

The “original sin” as a phase in the doctrine of sin refers to the 1st sin by mankind. This of course is Adam in the garden. What happen when man sinned? Man fall and is dead spiritually. God said, “ this day you will surely die” Adam totally corruped his human nature in his fall. In turn Adams sin caused his children to receive that same spiritually dead nature. Every one sence Adam has received this sin nature.

Gen 8 :21 (evil from his youth)
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

Job 14 : 1-4 (unclean)
"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He comes forth like a flower, and withers; he flees like a shadow, and continues not. And dost thou open thy eyes upon such a one and bring him into judgment with thee? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?

ps 51 : 5 ( iniquity/ sin)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Eccles 9 :3 (evil)
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that one fate comes to all; also the hearts of men are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer. 17 :9 (corrupt)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?

Romans 1 21-32 (all of this..a lot in this passage)
for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

Romans 3 : 9-18
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes

We have showen without debate a stong doctrine based fully on Gods word that mans nature fall into a total sin nature. We call this “total depravity”.

Total depravity means that corruption extends to every part of mans..or i mean the unsaved mans nature. From total depravity or ...lets call it total inability we set other doctrines.

Lets look at some more verse to back this statement up.

it affects his thinking................................

gen, 6: 5
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

romans 8: 5-8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 cor. 2:14
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

it affects his emotions and attitudes.......................

John 3 :19-20
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

John 8 : 44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

eph 4 :18
they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;


his body.........................

Rom. 8 :10
But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.

I Cor. 15:50
I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

last...guess what we have..mans will. You have seen many verses posted on this...but let me repost

john 5 :40
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

eph 2 :2-3
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Ok...why bring this sin nature up in the middle of the grace? But more then that...man does not have the nature to chose God. Its the same reason as why the lion will not eat hay. It is not in the nature of the lion to eat hay. He could do it...but he does not want to eat it. Man will not choose God...it is not in his nature. Yes..God reaches out to him...God calls all to be saved...but none come to him..till the holy spirit calls them.

Man is dead spiritually as God said he would be for sinning in the garden. Man can not choose God...nor will he choose God...because he does not want to choose God...and he does not know of God. Not till God reaches out to man.

now as this applys to grace.

When we approach this subject on the basis of biblical teaching, we must speak only of the area of which it concerns. This is about our relationship with God. If we do not do this, we end up talking nonsense.

Above i have tried to show from the Bible that the doctrine of total inability of man is shown in many ways from the promise of God in genesis to revelations. Nearly every book in the bible you will kind this doctrine in some form. When Adam sinned, there was generated in them the sin principle....romans 8:2 calls this the law of sin. This principle dominated their posterity throughout their unregenerate life. Oliver B Green was a very good man, yet not what i would call deep in his writings. However, a few of his books were very good in the way he laid out the subject. I do not mean to put Green down. I feel he wrote this way to reach many people. The reason I bring this up is one book i read years ago when teaching on the doctrine of soteriology by green was very strong on this word unregenerate man. I do not know the name of the book nor could i find in my library. I have just moved and have no idea where somethings are. If anyone knows of this book, please post. Anyway, in this book... green pounds this phase..."the unregenerate man"...over and over again. It makes a great impact on the subject.

This force is completely rules the lives of the unsaved man to the extent that all man does is sinful in the eyes of God.
romans 3...10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God

One must take note that no one while in this sin nature seeks God. The other side of this would mean ALL are in this fallen state till salvation.

Adams sin made him guilt and subject to divine condemnation
Rom. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
this means God found him guilty of sinning and so punishment was just.
This sin involved adams posterity so guilt was placed on them as well.

rom 5 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--

but what does this mean? well...what does it mean to be lost?

I will not do as well as green..but from my own postings and others you will see the Bible tells of this total inablity....or...what it means to be lost.

a lost man is....not able to understand the gifts of the Spirit of God, is not spiritually discerning, nor can he receive His Spirit of truth, nor can he understand, or bear to hear His Word, nor does he know the Holy spirit, he is hostile to God, and will not submit to God's law, indeed he CANNOT submit to Gods law. He can not please God, nor is spiritually discerning, he is a slave of sin and His imagination in his heart is evil, unclean, conceived in sin.

he is as unclean as a dog, stupid as a sheep, cunning as a fox, cruelty as a bear, subtlety as a serpent, stubborn as a ass

His heart is evil, and madness is in his heart, being deceitful, desperately corrupt, impurity, dishonoring, exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and is dishonorable, committing shameless acts, filled with all manner of wickedness, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, inventors of evil, disobedient, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. because their deeds were evil.

Mans father the devil, and mans will is to do your father's desires. The devil was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.darkened in their understanding, Mans is like his father.

He dead because of sin, refuse to come to God, Man follows the course of this world, follows the prince of the power of the air, has the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, and is called the children of wrath.


"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes, wickedness of man is great in the earth, every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually, men loved darkness rather than light.

From mans heart comes evil thought, adulters, fornications, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness his thoughts are vanity, vile, selfish, his mind is carnal and is enity against God, his tongue is unruly and evil and full of poison, His hands works are iniquity, his eyes are blinded, his eyes are deaf. He is poor and needy in his heart and is undone.


He is under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."

This is why man is said to be in total inability. This guy is LOST!!...is DEAD All of this you will find in the Bible

If this is true what am i to make of the fact i can still choose? A person who objects to man having no will based on simple reason that he seems to be able to do as he wills is right in doing so. Actually man can do many things of his will.

Man has a will that lets him choose regarding nonessential things. We can decide where to shop, what car to buy, what to eat, where we go to school. what team to cheer for..(GO WVU)
By contrast there are areas in which we do not have will. Our IQ will only let us go so high on the charts. We can not will to have a IQ of 160 if we only have a IQ of 100. IQ can not be moved sideways. If we have high intelligence in art does not mean we can force our will to a high level in Business.

The same is true in the spiritually things. What did Adam have before the fall? Well he did have freewill. this was lost after the fall.

We may see a picture of this if we imagine adam was on the side of a steep pit. and when God made Adam He said..”Adam, do not jump into the pit. If you jump into the pit...you can not get back out of the pit.” as long as adam stayed on the edge of the pit he had freewill to jump or not to jump. But once he decided to jump, adam had lost his freewill to get back to the edge. He did not loss his full will. He could still jump high....but not high enough to save himself. He could run and jump too. He could cry and blame it on someone else, make a ladder to reach high, no matter what was done adam works fell short.

Adams will was bond so he could not reach God.

This is Adam and all mankind. Lost from ever reaching God on our own. This pit is the pit of sin. Some are mad in this pit...some are fooled into works, some live a life sinning Most do not even know they are lost. But all are sinners. All are lost All can not reach God on their own. For reasons no one knows...and by GRACE alone God reached down.


This is Gods grace. Grace is from God. Regeneration is from God. Salvation is Gods Work.

In Christ...James

[ July 12, 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]

 

boo boo post..removed my me

 

It seems to me you have had opportunity to give an answer to what I have said. Instead, all that seems clear, IMO, is that you do not like what I have said. It seems you should have given a reason, an answer to express your understanding of those specific things.

As you continue to make empty accusations, such as you have made here, there is no reason for me to make more points about my understanding. Your expression of general displeasure is not something I want to use time on.

I am not going to make a new post for you, with more points, because it seems to me if you do not want to give an answer you will again just huff an puff and make new accusations.

You need not agree with what I say, but at least you should express some understanding of what I have been saying before moving foreword. Your actions are shameful, IMO.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Bob acually I did. I told you how I interpt the scriptures you gave. And it does not conflict with other scriptures. Reread and see if I didn't telll you how your strawman was just that.

By the way romans also says that after we are saves we are dead to sin. I think the problem is that the def. again of calvinism is way off base. Scripture also refere to those not saved as sick. We can only take the metaphor as far as scripture does. NO further. Dead in sins means they cannot please God. Not that they are totally oblivous to God. He knows all of His creation. Adam and Eve are the perfect example. After the fall they heard God in the garden and understood him. These are people who are dead in sin....hmmmmm must not be the same as a fleshly death.

As far huff and puff goes I leave that ball in the calvinist court with their strawmen. If you want to know what I think then ask me. It appears calvinist hardly know what they believe let alone what christians believe.

 

Tim,

Hi. some call me arthur around here...i sign my name james..my screen name is jarthur001..so who am i? I have no idea. I tell everyone i'm ....jim SDB. Senior Dead Beat. I moved up in this world from just a plain ol Dead Beat.

ok..i have bad jokes...

But..being as it is..we have never talked..i thought i should tell you who i am.

Your point is taken from above. Man is not dead..but rather only sick. I have heard this before from those that express there must be freewill. I have read many things on Gods will..and that is what I preach. Would you please take sometime and explain man being sick over man being dead. To tell you the truth..i have never heard this side explained in depth.

thanks...

In Christ..James

 

and...BTW..i like your show tim

 

I don’t know what I would do, if it were not for the opponents that define what it is Calvinists believe. Where do you get these definitions of what it is Calvinists believe? It would sure be helpful if you made that source public.

I’m going to be away for a while, a reunion with a fellow marine that enlisted with me 40 years ago. I’ll look over what you have said when I get back.

 

Jarthur, I think we can take for sure that man had a relationship with God. God loved Adam and Adam worshipped God. They were in harmoney. Now after the fall we can take it that God still loves man, but man cannot relate to that love. He cannot fellowship with God and that the relationship is dead. Man now tries to please self unless He is saved.

I think we can say though that God still knows every person on this earth. That he knows what they are saying and what they are thinking.
God reaches out to man, not man to God. God, as I have said before has reached out (mind you man could not) by doing all the work so man COULD believe. But I don't believe the Bible teaches man has accept the work done. I don't believe God forces it on anyone. That is not a relationship that is robotics.
I answered this rather quickly cause I think we can talk. Maybe better pm. I find the more personal I get with calvinist the more I like em. That is when I get a chanceto know them. Anyways you call it.

Tim

 

Oldregular,
I have no difficulty understanding, I want you to tell me how grace saves because you claim that it saves without a single thread of evidence that it does so.

I want you to tell me How God gives grace without there being a single bit of evidence of any transferance of a substance you call grace!

I what you to tell men how God gives FAITH to man without there being a shadow of evidence that faith can be transfered from one being to another.

If you cannot do that YOU HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING, and should stop making claims you cannot back up!