Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

Timtoolman · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
It appears calvinist hardly know what they believe. . .
Click to expand...

I don’t know what I would do, if it were not for the opponents that define what it is Calvinists believe. Where do you get these definitions of what it is Calvinists believe? It would sure be helpful if you made that source public.

I’m going to be away for a while, a reunion with a fellow marine that enlisted with me 40 years ago. I’ll look over what you have said when I get back.

[/QUOTE]There are so many degrees of calvinism each person has to be dealt with indiviluality. Just as in other religeons also. It gets frustrating because I have yet to meet one that fully agrees with calvin.

Jarthur001 · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Jarthur, I think we can take for sure that man had a relationship with God. God loved Adam and Adam worshipped God. They were in harmoney. Now after the fall we can take it that God still loves man, but man cannot relate to that love. He cannot fellowship with God and that the relationship is dead. Man now tries to please self unless He is saved.

I think we can say though that God still knows every person on this earth. That he knows what they are saying and what they are thinking.
God reaches out to man, not man to God. God, as I have said before has reached out (mind you man could not) by doing all the work so man COULD believe. But I don't believe the Bible teaches man has accept the work done. I don't believe God forces it on anyone. That is not a relationship that is robotics.
I answered this rather quickly cause I think we can talk. Maybe better pm. I find the more personal I get with calvinist the more I like em. That is when I get a chanceto know them. Anyways you call it.

Tim
Click to expand...

Tim,

Thanks for your reply. To tell you the truth in my mind i jump all over the place. I want to believe it is fully in mans hand. I have said this before in my teachings...for it seems right to say. Yet everytime i go to Gods Word to prove it...i can't find it. This is mainly on election. I have no problem with Sin nature. I say this not to say you are wrong. I say this for in my studys I feel it is clear. At the same time..i have not studied from your "sick man" view. I do know some hold this few. I will do more to study it.

2 things i do not debate is atonement for sins...and if you can turn down grace or not. These 2 points are rather well... pointless ..as far as i see it. In the end..both say atonement is applied to those that are saved only. ...and the only way you can measure if salvation is irresistible is if the person believes. Now how can one agree that? So i do not waste my time with that part of the debate.

I do find myself coming closer and closer to calvin in election. I tried for years to twist it out,,,but i can not do this. I’m not saying you do this...i see you looking for the truth. I did when I 1st came into the debate. still..i look for input. Even on this board i have asked those that do not believe in election as calvin teaches, to post good points from the Bible..showing where calvin is wrong. Tim...what i have seen is they run from this. or post things that have nothing to do with it. This makes me more sure of Calvin’s teaching. election is very hard for me to understand...yet i can not throw out those verses.

This has turned into something that proclaims CALVIN is right. I did not mean it that way. just sharing my thoughts

anyway...all i can tell you as you look....stay with the Word. I feel you will do this...for you have been fair in your post.

In Christ...James

Jarthur001 · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Oldregular,
I have no difficulty understanding, I want you to tell me how grace saves because you claim that it saves without a single thread of evidence that it does so.

I want you to tell me How God gives grace without there being a single bit of evidence of any transferance of a substance you call grace!

I what you to tell men how God gives FAITH to man without there being a shadow of evidence that faith can be transfered from one being to another.

If you cannot do that YOU HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING, and should stop making claims you cannot back up!
Click to expand...

Hello wes,

You seem to brake down many words.

grace, love, faith, hope.

just so i can have a better understanding..why do you do this?

what is grace..and why is it not faith? what is love..and why is it not faith?..and so on

Thanks...
In Christ..james

rc · Jul 12, 2005

Can I touch, smell, taste, or hear faith?
Click to expand...

Can you touch, smell, taste, or hear the will?

It is your HEART that you exercise saving faith.
GOD has to give you this or you never WILL find that faith Wes. You undercut the explicit verses that determine the ability of the heart to HAVE that faith. And that heart comes from GOD not man.

Ezekiel 36:26 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Can you see, hear, taste the "new heart" Wes?
THIS is the new disposition that enables a man to HAVE FAITH.

Timtoolman · Jul 12, 2005

James you sound like me cept I am going in the other direction. I actually started leaning towards calvinism a few years back but it led me to read more and the more I read the more calvinism seemed to make the whole gopspel a mute pt. Why the call to repent, why the call to lead a holy life, why even does God tell us how to live and expect us to live as He ask?
And of course the clear conflict of the fact that man is locked into his sin nature and God allows some to be free and others He condemns to hell. He makes the choice, yet holds man accountable....He makes the choice! Yet man is held accountable. Now if scriptures supported that then I would be willing to go with it. I just don't think it is there. I am willing to admitt I don't have it all figured out but with eqeaul passion I can say calvin ain't right either!

Tim

rc · Jul 12, 2005

He makes the choice, yet holds man accountable....He makes the choice! Yet man is held accountable. Now if scriptures supported that then I would be willing to go with it.
Click to expand...

Romans 9:19-20 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest...: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?}

I understand Tim. I have only read Calvin indirectly but have come to the conclusion from the above passage. I found myself asking in study, "Why am I asking this same question that Paul is writing?" He anticipated it! Why did he anticipate it? Why was it asked just after that previous context? But the answer is clear and explicit. I bowed down to it. So did other great Arminian students like J. Piper, R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur after this VERY passage.

It is a passage that has great power and is full of awe when studying it carefully.

rc · Jul 12, 2005

Tim,
I was wondering also who did you study that lead you to conclusions that left you feeling like evangelism was somehow useless or living out His commandments where futile? ... Just wondering.

The call to evangelize was the means that God wanted to use so we can participate in His glorious communication of the gospel. In doing so we partake in giving God glory in watching HIM work out His plan. Following His commandments are the same. We give HIM glory knowing that our sanctification is an amazing grace from him, and we get to partake in watching Him work in us....

Have you ever listened to John Piper on these issues? I think you would be greatly encouraged and edified by them... his site is desiringgod.com

In love

RC

Timtoolman · Jul 12, 2005

Thanks for the site, my son had already given it too me. As for the querstion that I asked and is asked in Romans. I don't think God is saying that is the right answer more just saying that who are we to ask. MOst likely it is beyond our comprehendsion how it works therefore no clear answer just a rebuke for questioning God.

Timtoolman · Jul 12, 2005

Sorry did not answer your first question. I have a talked to many 5 pters on the internet, have a calvinist pastor who lives across the street from me and my pastor is a calvinist. So As I listen to them and then reading the Bible I have to wonder why?

Wes Outwest · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Oldregular,
I have no difficulty understanding, I want you to tell me how grace saves because you claim that it saves without a single thread of evidence that it does so.

I want you to tell me How God gives grace without there being a single bit of evidence of any transferance of a substance you call grace!

I what you to tell men how God gives FAITH to man without there being a shadow of evidence that faith can be transfered from one being to another.

If you cannot do that YOU HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING, and should stop making claims you cannot back up!
Click to expand...

Hello wes,

You seem to brake down many words.

grace, love, faith, hope.

just so i can have a better understanding..why do you do this?

what is grace..and why is it not faith? what is love..and why is it not faith?..and so on

Thanks...
In Christ..james [/QUOTE]Stop evading the fact that you do not have an answer to the challenge! You have been asked to define HOW Grace saves, and YOU cannot!

You have been asked to explain HOW God "gives" grace to man, and YOU CANNOT!

You have been asked to Explain how God "gives" faith to man and YOU CANNOT!

You have no answers, therefore you too are a parrot!

Wes Outwest · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by rc:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Can I touch, smell, taste, or hear faith?
Click to expand...

Can you touch, smell, taste, or hear the will?

It is your HEART that you exercise saving faith.
GOD has to give you this or you never WILL find that faith Wes. You undercut the explicit verses that determine the ability of the heart to HAVE that faith. And that heart comes from GOD not man.

Ezekiel 36:26 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Can you see, hear, taste the "new heart" Wes?
THIS is the new disposition that enables a man to HAVE FAITH. [/QUOTE]If you Can't explain it, rc, You don't own it!
And if you don't own it you are merely parroting someone else!

rc · Jul 12, 2005

Tim,

I don't think God is saying that is the right answer more just saying that who are we to ask.
Click to expand...

It begs the question though doesn't it?
Why would Paul anticipate the question? It IS linked to the context of what was written in Rom 9... why would this CONTEXT promote asking the question?

OldRegular · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The Calvinist doctrine says that we are saved by Grace. I want to know how that is accomplished. What are the mechanics of saved by grace?

Calvinists doctrine says that man cannot have faith without "God give him the faith". I want to know just how that is accomplished, what are the mechanics of "faith is given"?

Calvinists doctrine says man cannot be born again unless God first regenerate the man. I want to know HOW that is accomplished, just what are the mechanics of regeneration before faith?

If you know the answers of HOW GRACE SAVES, HOW WE GET FAITH, and HOW man is REGENERATED before faith, Please tell us all!
Click to expand...

Response by OldRegular:
Wes

Your problem seems to be that you are confusing mechanics, the natural, with the spiritual.

First it is not only Calvinists who state that man is saved by grace, the unmerited favor of God. Mankind, after the fall, is by nature sinful and undeserving of any favor from God. Even Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox will insist that man is saved by Grace.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. From this passage it appears that Jesus Christ is saying that man cannot understand how the new birth [regeneration] occurs. That is obviously true and makes your question about "MECHANICS" moot.

In Ephesians 2:1-7 [NKJV} we are given additional information on regeneration or the new birth:

1. And you (He made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Please note that this Scripture tells us that while we were dead [spiritually] in trespasses and sins [verses 1, 5] we were made alive by God simply because of His grace [verse 5]. Also note that there is absolutely no action required on man's part. God makes alive that which was spiritually dead in trespasses and sin. This truth is also taught in John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Wes, You seem to have a poor understanding of the power of God. God can do what He chooses to do as long as it is not contrary to His nature.

1. God chooses certain people unto Salvation in Jesus Christ. [Ephesians 1: 3-6] That is His perogative. That is a direct manifestation of His grace, His unmerited favor, toward man. The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
2. God then, at a time of His choosing, makes each of those chosen unto Salvation in Jesus Christ, who were dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually alive through the Holy Spirit. [Ephesians 2:1-7, John 3:6]
3. God then, again in the person of the Holy Spirit, gives those whom He has regenerated, [made spiritually alive, given the new birth] the gift of faith.[ Ephesians 2:8] Having this gift of Faith the regenerate man is then able to respond effectually to the Gospel call.

There are no mechanics involved. God the Holy Spirit is involved. That is sufficient.
Click to expand...

Response posted by Wes, Outwest:
Oldregular,
I have no difficulty understanding, I want you to tell me how grace saves because you claim that it saves without a single thread of evidence that it does so.

I want you to tell me How God gives grace without there being a single bit of evidence of any transferance of a substance you call grace!

I what you to tell men how God gives FAITH to man without there being a shadow of evidence that faith can be transfered from one being to another.

If you cannot do that YOU HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING, and should stop making claims you cannot back up!
Click to expand...

WES:
As far as being saved by Grace and how we receive Grace, consider the following Scripture:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Corinthians 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

WES:
I have given you Scripture showing you how God gave Peter the faith to declare that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God [Matthew 15:13-17]. You reject this and want a natural explanation of the mechanics of what occurs.

I also presented Scripture where Jesus Christ states that man cannot understand regeneration, the new birth [John 3:8]. You reject this and want a natural explanation of the mechanics of what occurs.

You want to bring God down to the level of man so that we can understand His mind. I would remind you of the Scripture that states:

Isaiah 55:8, 9
8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Now you may insist that you can understand the ways and thoughts of God, but as usual you are incorrect.

WES:
Don't dig your hole any deeper. Just accept what Scripture tells us. The history of heresy in the Church is the refusal of people to accept Scripture, or to add their own thoughts to Scripture.

WES, WES, WES:
You say:

I want you to tell me How God gives grace without there being a single bit of evidence of any transferance of a substance you call grace! I what you to tell men how God gives FAITH to man without there being a shadow of evidence that faith can be transfered from one being to another.
Click to expand...

Surely you are not claiming that Grace is a substance. The word-faith heretics claim that Faith is a substance and that God used that substance to create.

Surely you are not emulating these word-faith heretics?

By the way, I have never and would never refer to either Grace or Faith as a Substance.

Jarthur001 · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jarthur001:
[qb]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
[qb] ]
Click to expand...

Stop evading the fact that you do not have an answer to the challenge! You have been asked to define HOW Grace saves, and YOU cannot!

You have been asked to explain HOW God "gives" grace to man, and YOU CANNOT!

You have been asked to Explain how God "gives" faith to man and YOU CANNOT!

You have no answers, therefore you too are a parrot! 
Click to expand...

1st...i think you need some ice cream...or something to chill you down. maybe a vacation or something
i have posted a very long...maybe to long ...reply to what i think grace is. your reply to this...i'm a parrot

ok..i'm a parrot. call me what you want. am i a moron too like you called bob? fine...how about stupid? You have not used that today.
ok..now that we know who i am...please enlighten me wes.

i said what i think Grace is. what is grace wes? is grace the same as love? teach me wes. i am your student.

i told you what i think faith is...you said i didn't come close to the root of faith.

so tell me wes...what is faith? I listen as you teach.

In Christ..polly want a cracker?

rc · Jul 12, 2005

Faith in the cross is foolishness to those who are parrishing. Faith is something that is spiritual and natural man is spiritually discerned. God must change man's heart in order to being able to exercise the WILLINGNESS to UNDERSTAND and have faith. Wes can't get that. He likes to think that the water flowing out of a faucet can change which way the faucet it aiming at. The fauced directs the water. Mans heart is the faucet, mans will is the water.

Jarthur001 · Jul 12, 2005

What i wrote on faith, hope and love may seem like a bunch of physic babble when you read it. I am not the best at expressing myself. But let me ask you wes to read it again.

I sat under the teaching of Dr Dan Burger for 15 years. Burger now teaches at BJU in greenville NC. Burger more then any one else shaped my faith into what it is today. There are better speakers in the world..but no better teacher of the Word.

Burger use to say over and over...you live your life in love...or you live your life in fear. All the things you do either fear or love will drive you.

If you think about it..it is true. why do you do what you do? A leader rules a nation in fear..or love. People love him and want to do it...or people hate him..and do it in fear. In the OT they kept the law..under fear. in the NT we keep Gods laws because we love Him. what drives you?

On the love side we also see...faith...faith comes from love. we also see hope...hope comes from love. We also see grace...which is a type of Love...in love we see security

in love we see a vision. in fear we see a problem. in love we find faith in God. in fear we see uncertainty. In love we see Gods grace. In Fear we see Gods judgement. In Gods love we find Hope. In fear we see no hope.

faith, hope and love are linked. Love is the root that gives the other reason.

In Christ...James

OldRegular · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The Calvinist doctrine says that we are saved by Grace. I want to know how that is accomplished. What are the mechanics of saved by grace?

Calvinists doctrine says that man cannot have faith without "God give him the faith". I want to know just how that is accomplished, what are the mechanics of "faith is given"?

Calvinists doctrine says man cannot be born again unless God first regenerate the man. I want to know HOW that is accomplished, just what are the mechanics of regeneration before faith?

If you know the answers of HOW GRACE SAVES, HOW WE GET FAITH, and HOW man is REGENERATED before faith, Please tell us all!
Click to expand...

WesOutwest

You apparently assume that you are the fount of all Biblical knowledge on this Forum so will you please answer the following question, giving Scripture to support your argument.

1. What part, if any, does the Grace of God play in the Salvation of man?

2. What part, if any does Faith play in the Salvation of man?

3. What part, if any, does God the Father play in the Salvation of man?

4. What part, if any, does God the Son play in the Salvation of man?

5. What part, if any, does God the Holy Spirit play in the Salvation of man?

6. What part, if any, does man play in regeneration?

7. What part, if any, does regeneration play in the Salvation of man?

8. What part, if any, does man play in his own Salvation?

9. Why are some men who hear the Gospel saved while others who hear the Gospel are not saved?

I look forward to being educated but please provide Scripture to support your response.

Wes Outwest · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by OldRegular:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The Calvinist doctrine says that we are saved by Grace. I want to know how that is accomplished. What are the mechanics of saved by grace?

Calvinists doctrine says that man cannot have faith without "God give him the faith". I want to know just how that is accomplished, what are the mechanics of "faith is given"?

Calvinists doctrine says man cannot be born again unless God first regenerate the man. I want to know HOW that is accomplished, just what are the mechanics of regeneration before faith?

If you know the answers of HOW GRACE SAVES, HOW WE GET FAITH, and HOW man is REGENERATED before faith, Please tell us all!
Click to expand...

WesOutwest

You apparently assume that you are the fount of all Biblical knowledge on this Forum so will you please answer the following question, giving Scripture to support your argument.

1. What part, if any, does the Grace of God play in the Salvation of man?

2. What part, if any does Faith play in the Salvation of man?

3. What part, if any, does God the Father play in the Salvation of man?

4. What part, if any, does God the Son play in the Salvation of man?

5. What part, if any, does God the Holy Spirit play in the Salvation of man?

6. What part, if any, does man play in regeneration?

7. What part, if any, does regeneration play in the Salvation of man?

8. What part, if any, does man play in his own Salvation?

9. Why are some men who hear the Gospel saved while others who hear the Gospel are not saved?

I look forward to being educated but please provide Scripture to support your response. [/QUOTE]NO! NOT UNTIL YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!

rc · Jul 12, 2005

Wes,
We've answered your questions, you just don't listen and understand them.

OldRegular · Jul 12, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The Calvinist doctrine says that we are saved by Grace. I want to know how that is accomplished. What are the mechanics of saved by grace?

Calvinists doctrine says that man cannot have faith without "God give him the faith". I want to know just how that is accomplished, what are the mechanics of "faith is given"?

Calvinists doctrine says man cannot be born again unless God first regenerate the man. I want to know HOW that is accomplished, just what are the mechanics of regeneration before faith?

If you know the answers of HOW GRACE SAVES, HOW WE GET FAITH, and HOW man is REGENERATED before faith, Please tell us all!
Click to expand...

Response posted by OldRegular:
WesOutwest

You apparently assume that you are the fount of all Biblical knowledge on this Forum so will you please answer the following question, giving Scripture to support your argument.

1. What part, if any, does the Grace of God play in the Salvation of man?

2. What part, if any does Faith play in the Salvation of man?

3. What part, if any, does God the Father play in the Salvation of man?

4. What part, if any, does God the Son play in the Salvation of man?

5. What part, if any, does God the Holy Spirit play in the Salvation of man?

6. What part, if any, does man play in regeneration?

7. What part, if any, does regeneration play in the Salvation of man?

8. What part, if any, does man play in his own Salvation?

9. Why are some men who hear the Gospel saved while others who hear the Gospel are not saved?

I look forward to being educated but please provide Scripture to support your response.
Click to expand...

Petulant Refusal by Wes, Outwest:
NO! NOT UNTIL YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!
Click to expand...

WES, WES, WES,

I answered your questions in my previous post to which you have failed to respond. Is it that you are unable to do so?

Furthermore, your questions have been answered numerous times by many others yet you refuse to accept both the answer and the Scripture presented as proof. Therefore, it is obvious that you are the only one on this Forum who understands the Scriptural Doctrine of Salvation. It is only reasonable and just that you enlighten the rest of us.

With that in mind I present you with a list of questions. If you are unable to answer them then I will have to repent of my error in thinking you understand the Biblical doctrine of Salvation.

Not to be impertinent but what gives you the right to ask the same questions on each thread, refuse to believe the answers backed by Scriptural proofs, and then think you are above being questioned?

Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

Timtoolman New Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

rc New Member

Timtoolman New Member

rc New Member

rc New Member

Timtoolman New Member

Timtoolman New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

rc New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

rc New Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Wes Outwest New Member

rc New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Useful Searches

Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

Timtoolman New Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

rc New Member

Timtoolman New Member

rc New Member

rc New Member

Timtoolman New Member

Timtoolman New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

rc New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

rc New Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Wes Outwest New Member

rc New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member