Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

Oldregular,
You have not answered the questions and your post shows everyone your evasiveness regarding the truth.

 

wes...oh wes. come on brother.

you are acting like a jr high kid here. is your goal to reach the truth..or win a debate?

i asked what something means. i post my thoughts...others post their thoughts. You say..WRONG. I say..ok..tell me. you say..no..not going to. others ask for you to share your view...again..NO..not going to.

i gave my views...others have gave their views. ok..they are wrong.

so tell us...what is right?

 

The only conclusion one can draw from your position that grace is given is that it must be something that is giveable. It must be a transferable commodity for it to be given from one being to another. Substance is a word that is used in place of the name of something "tangible" that exists. I am not therefore saying that grace is a substance.

You say that God gives grace, and faith to man that without God giving them man cannot have them.

I have asked you HOW that happens but you refuse to answer with the HOW, only with biblical verses that you interpret as it does happen. If it happens, HOW does it happen? If God gives grace, HOW does he give grace, HOW does man receive and use Grace?

You say that God gives man faith, but you refuse to answer the question HOW does God give faith or HOW man receives faith, and uses it?

The question is not whether it happens, but rather HOW does it happen, What is it that is given in a transferance of the "unidentifiable gift? I say unidentifiable, because you also refuse to identify what Grace is, and What faith is.

By the way I am first to ask, not you!

 

I think its fair to say i have not said how man gets grace from God. I do think i have covered what grace is. If not..let me say again...but this time very short.

Grace is a form of love. some say grace and love are the same..but i feel grace is only part of love.

Grace is....love for no reason at all.

in the bible it is used as only love sometimes. and sometimes it is used as grace/love coming from others...or better worded...shown to others.

But mainly..it is Gods Love given to man...for no reason at all.


"What is man that thou are mindful of him?" this is asking about grace. why God did you love us? there is no reason

The story i told of man in sins pit..this is grace.
why did God reach down? there is no reason...only Gods love

now some verses

Romans 1:5 - By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 4:4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace , but of debt.

i like this verse..read it again.^

Romans 4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace ; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:2 - By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Romans 5:15 - But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace , which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 11:5 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace .

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace , then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace . But if it be of works, then it is no more grace : otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

i'll post my view on how grace comes from God later

In Christ...James

 

OldRegular,

Both parts of this statement are blatantly false! To set the record straight,

Part one, You have not told me what scripture says, you tell me what your interpretation of scripture says.

Part two, I have never rejected scripture period! ONLY the interpretation of scripture by others do I reject, and then only after evaluating the scripture for myself!

You are on the horns of delemma because you cannot answer my questions without questioning your own belief system..

 

As for ignoring the posts of others, I have other obligations to attend to like a job! that takes precedence over posting on this BBS. I slip in when I can and answer what I can as time permits!

 

in my six+ generations I have never heard of grace being part of love!

I believe from God's perspective, grace and mercy are one, but from man's perspective, they are viewed in accordance with man's condition as being separate...grace when things are good, and mercy when things are bad.

But that doesn't say what grace is! or HOW it is given by one to another.

 

Did you know that mercy is part of love too?

 

Of course they are behavioral attributes of God that are so inter-twined as to be inseparable, but one can be demonstrated without the others.

Now how does God give any of them to man as in giving a gift as so many Calvinists insist they are! You remember, "If God didn't give it to man man could not have it!" How does that transferance take place?

 

sorry..i got busy.

well i would say you feel man had love in some way before God reaches out to him. I'm not saying either way..just typing as i think.

humm

well..man does have a "will" to love. the saved and unsaved both love to eat. But Can man love God? I think this is what you are asking.

I can draw on 2 things to answer this.

1st my life.

2nd the Bible

however..i need to leave work right now...and i have church later. Hold that thought..and i'll try to be back to it later.


In Christ...James

 

I post Scripture that answers your questions. You reject that Scripture insisting that a mechanistic answer be provided. Others on this Forum recognize that you are guilty of ignoring what Scripture states. That is the truth. </font>[/QUOTE]The paragraph you wrote, from which I extracted what I quoted,posted 13-07-2005 10:05.

I know what I quoted is correct, because it did a copy and past of your post.

You have not answered the questions of HOW God gives GRACE and or FAITH to man. You have given scripture that does not answer the HOW, and you stand firmly on those scriptures not understanding that there must be a HOW he does what YOU claim he does. If you can't explain it how can you claim it! If you can't explain it YOU DON'T OWN IT.

 

Now poor ol' Wes is going to have to figure out whether eternal life is a substance.

 

Old Regular,

God is not HOW, God is WHO!

A Promise does not tell HOW, it tells what.

The questions remain,

HOW does God give grace to man?

HOW Does God give FAITH to man?

Until you can explain the HOW you will not own the what!

 

Hello wes,

As I said yesterday i think you are asking does man have the love before salvation..or after. If he gets love/grace/faith/hope after salvation how does he get it?

In The Bible, love is used in many ways to tell of salvation.

hosea

In Hosea God tells Hosea to marry a whore. The whole Book of hosea is like a play for us to see a picture. Hosea is God and Gomer his wife is Israel. But i think you can see a picture of the elect in gomer too. Hosea loves Gomer, but Gomer runs from Hosea for the pleasures of Sin. Hosea seeks Gomer out of his love..and buys her back for when he finds her...she is a salve. This shows Gods love as he paid for our sin and covers our sin. We are then feed from sin.....a slave to sin no longer...and live in Christ.


Lets look at Song of Solomon

Many Christian commentators say the Song of Songs is a picture of the Church as the Bride of Christ. God loves His only Son ....and has called out, .... prepared for him, a beautiful, ... bride, "without spot or blemish," Ephesians 5:23-32.

Genesis 24.

Abraham's servant ..(type of the Holy Spirit)... was sent by Abraham ...(type of the Father), into the far country to secure Rebekah as wife for his beloved Son, Isaac, ....(type of Christ).


Romans 7:1-4:

"Do you not know, brethren---for I am speaking to those who know the law---that the law is binding on a person only during his life? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies she is discharged from the law concerning the husband. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God."

In this passage the believer is pictured as being "married to sin" prior to her conversion. She is not free to be married to another man, while she is "dead in trespasses and sins" .....(Ephesians 2). To attempt to live a godly life while still married to her first husband would be spiritual adultery. The Law of Moses establishes the requirement that the woman should remain faithful to her husband. However in Romans 7 we learn that the woman's first husband dies. This death of the "old man" corresponds to Christ becoming sin for us and dying in our stead. ("He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.") The woman is now free to remarry---because the death of her first husband annuls her old marriage agreement under the law.

The woman's second husband is "Christ raised from the dead." Again, the Law establishes the second marriage as legitimate after the death of the first husband.

more coming.....