Heresy?: Calvinism or Arminianism

the love of God..part 2

But the best love book is John

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

The fact of God and Christ is God

    3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Christ made all things..but the point is God made man.

4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

In Christ is life. In Christ is light..or understanding

5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood [a]it.

This is after creation in verse 3.
The light...or the truth...or Christ...shines in darkness as understanding
But...the darkness of the world makes it so that Man does not understand.

Now john moves to a story...

    6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

John shared to the World Gods love...or tried to let the world understand God. Why?...so that man may be believe. Notice this is the gosple is God reaching out to man. Still no faith by man. Man still does not understand. Still no love of God from man.

8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

John is not the light...christ ahs come..and christ is that light

    10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

He came to the world...lived in the world..walked with men...talked with men...the world did not know Him

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
He came to the jews...The jews were the ones that God had chosen to give the promise. God had chosen for the Jews give the law to. God had chosen the Jews write and hold the Word of God. This we “his” own. His own did not know Him.

12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Yet...if the jews would have believed..that world have found salvation and faith and Gods love. Yet..if the world had believed...ALL the world...they world have found love/grace/hope and faith. But they did not

13 children born not of natural descent, [c]nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

This is saying..
If you are a jew...this does not mean you have the understanding of God...but live in drakness as seen above.
You can not just deside to have understanding
Because your huddy has understanding..does not mean you do.
Understanding only comes from God.


Now john starts all over and tells the same story with more detail


    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, [d]who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Notice...Christ is the one that has the grace and truth. Chrsit is the one that brings it to earth. This is our only hope. At this point John has not got to salvation. Man is still in the dark.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "

John is say John the baptist said..”this is what I’m talking about people!!! the christ i preach...he is above me...he has come.

16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.

where do we receive blessing..or salvation? from the FULLness of Chrsit grace. still..man has not took this grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

where does grace come from? Jesus Christ. still man does not have it in this story

18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, [e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Salvation has come from God...Christ is HERE. Grace is HERE. Gods LOVE is here

    19 Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ. [g]"

John says...its not me dude Its Gods love.

    21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
      He said, "I am not."
      "Are you the Prophet?"
      He answered, "No."

    22 Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"

    23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "

John is saying. God has a plan of salvation. God loves the world..and wants all to be saved. I am here sharing Gods love to you. I want you to see the gace of God. I’m just a voice...a preacher...calling out to the desert...the lost...the ones that do not understand...the world....Gods salvation is for ALL the world.
    24 Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

    26 "I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie."

    28 This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Baptizing is a picture of dieing to self...and raised in new life. Feed from sin...born to serve God. Going from the dark....into the light. this is the reason that john baptized. as a picture of the REAL salvation. Still to this point in the story....man has no grace/love from God.

    29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

hey world....LOOK! Look to God. God is salvation. Christ is God!!

30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'

This is the ONE. in todays words....”now this is what i’m talking about guys”

31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."

This baptizing was only a picture. Christ is the REAL salvation

    32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

the spirit...came from heaven. WOW it is God that saves

33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

how do you know john? God reached out and told Him. John was with no understanding like all others...till God reached out to him.

34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

This is the gosple


    35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

LOOK...a call to God

now..grace/love comes in our story

    37 When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus.

This is when the disiples followed. There was a light in a dark world. This came after they heard the gospel.

38 Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?"
      They said, "Rabbi" (which means Teacher), "where are you staying?"

    39 "Come," he replied, "and you will see."

come...and understand


      So they went and saw where he was staying, and spent that day with him. It was about the tenth hour.

    40 Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus.

andrew followed when he heard

41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).

Simon followed when he heard

42 And he brought him to Jesus.
      Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter [j]).


    43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."

Philip followed when he heard

    44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

    46 "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked.
      "Come and see," said Philip.

come...understand... Nathanael followed..when he heard.

    47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

    48 "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
      Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

notice Philip said the words...But God called Philip and was only used by God. God knew what was going on..for he was there.

    49 Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

    50 Jesus said, "You believe [k]because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51 He then added, "I tell you [l]the truth, you [m]shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

that was chapter 1.

more to come..

 

the love of God part 3
that was chapter 1.

chapter 2 is about the wedding...and when Christ over turns the tables. read this if you want.


for our study on love skip to chapter 3

Jesus invites nic

    1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

    3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. [a]"

    4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

    5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [c]must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

    9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

    10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

above is Jesus calling nic to him. sharing the gospel

notice this...being a jew..one of the chosen...how can you not understand? God has made mean ways to know God. The call is to all...yet no one comes

11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

the world will not accept God...and that is the truth dude

12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

they do not understand..for they can not. They are blind

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

salvation is though GOD

[d]14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. [e]

Lift up GOD..

    16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
who gave? God

[f]that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

salvation is for who?..the world. But they do not understand.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

christ came to save. the call is to all. man will not listen. Christ came not to condemn..but to save...but because man does not seek God...man will stay in his sin nature....and in this nature..he is condemned already

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

same thing as above

[g]19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

man is blinded my sins...or evil. Man does not see a need of the light

20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

same as above...

21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

salvation is to ALL..whosoever will may come...but Christ keeps saying..no one comes...they do not understand.

John the Baptist's About Jesus ....
    22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

    27 To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.

only from heaven...not from himself

28 You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ [j]but am sent ahead of him.'

more coming...

 

ESV Titus 3:10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,

I agree.

 

the love of God..part 4

ok this is my passage

29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.

the joy is complete...when we become the bride. This is when we get the love of God/ grace/faith...at salvation. We do not have the faith to believer be fore this...for we do not uderstand. When we understand..is when God shows his love to us....and then we have faith...and we take on..the GRACE of god. Grace comes to us...for no reason at all...other then..God Loves us

    31 "The one who comes from above is above all;
God is in control..

The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

Man has no understanding. God is above man...and has the understanding...and grace..and is in control to give His Grace to his bride

32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God [k]gives the Spirit without limit.

God gives salvation to...without limit. Does this mean salvation is given to all? no...with out limit..meaning he is in control of the giving and When we get it...we get it all..not part of it.


now the order from which love comes...

35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

Love comes from God and is given to Christ.

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,

Christ gives love to us..at salvation. his love is showen here in life (light)..understanding...back to 1st chapter

but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

other men...they remain in sin...and go to hell...just as all should. Why did he give love to me? This is grace...for no reason at all.


again..this is NOT kicking others into hell. They have the wrath already.

Christ can chose His Bride and has. His bride is the elect...the church...but they are His..for He chose them. Man did not come after God called him. Man did not see the need of Light. God picked his bride.

This is Gods Love for us. This is grace.


In Christ...James

 

rc,
That's how you manage to remain a CALVINIST, You shut off those who oppose CALVINISM!

You don't want to be bothered with the truth because you do not want to be set free!

 

How did God create air ? How did God create the stars, the sun, the moon, the universe ? How did God create ?

If you can't explain the how, Wes, how come you're enjoying God's creation ?

How did God create you, Wes ? Until you can explain that, should we consider you a non-entity ?

 

Jarthur001 said

Answer the specific question, not what you think I said. The specific intent of my questions is HOW does what you say happens happen? You say God gives grace to man....HOW does that happen? You say that God gives faith to man...HOW does that Happen?

 

Wrong conclusion!

You preach that certain things happen but you cannot give a shred of evidence HOW they happen, Why then should any thinking person believe you?
Your stance is not credible!
You are not reaching the lost for Christ!
You have not brought your 2000 year old Gospel into the 21st century!

Why should anyone accept what you say?

 

Answer the specific question, not what you think I said. The specific intent of my questions is HOW does what you say happens happen? You say God gives grace to man....HOW does that happen? You say that God gives faith to man...HOW does that Happen? </font>[/QUOTE]Wes..i did

 

Wes says:
Answer the specific question, not what you think I said. The specific intent of my questions is HOW does what you say happens happen? You say God gives grace to man....HOW does that happen? You say that God gives faith to man...HOW does that Happen?

Here Now will answer that:
According to the Bible, looking back at the creation of creation, he spoke it into action. Something like this:

LET 'SO AND SO' HAVE GRACE!
And at that VERY moment 'so and so' has Grace.

It's REALLY SIMPLE Wes.

GOD IS GOD. HE CAN DO ANYTHING.

Why do so many people try to LIMIT God's abilities?

 

Thanks JArthur001,
I am intimately familiar with what you posted. But do not agree with your conclusion.

Look at the examples given throughout the gospels of how the crowds came to Jesus, he did not call them, they came, they heard, they told others who came and heard too, and they either believed what Jesus told them, or not. Those who believed, became Jesus' disciples. Disciples are not necessarily "elect" but they are believers and adherents of Jesus teachings, followers of the shepherd. Believers are the church!

Those whom the Father Gave to Jesus, the 12, are the Elect and we call them Apostles! They were chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world. Mary, the mother of Jesus is an Elect, Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist and John are elect, even Zacharias, John's father is an elect. The Jews, as a people are the elect of God the Father.

Believers are the church! That is, "whosoever believeth..." is the church.

 

Answer the specific question, not what you think I said. The specific intent of my questions is HOW does what you say happens happen? You say God gives grace to man....HOW does that happen? You say that God gives faith to man...HOW does that Happen? </font>[/QUOTE]Wes..i did </font>[/QUOTE]If you had, I would have recognized it. Please cite the exact post in which you answered the How questios.

 

thanks wes,

I understand your view as well. But there are verse one must deal with in holding this view

Col 3 is one..

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

I think in this case it is the church

In Christ...James

 

another one...

1 Thessalonians 1

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake

 

2 Timothy 2

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

paul looks to others that will be saved and calls them the elect.

 

Peter calls the church elect in 1 Peter 5

13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. 14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen

 

here is someone not on your list called the elect

in john
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; 2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

 

How did God create air ? How did God create the stars, the sun, the moon, the universe ? How did God create ?

If you can't explain the how, Wes, how come you're enjoying God's creation ?

How did God create you, Wes ? Until you can explain that, should we consider you a non-entity ? </font>[/QUOTE]The difference here is that NOWHERE in scripture does is say that God gives me the stars, the sun, the moon, the universe. They do not belong to me as in receiving a gift of God. They are there for me to see and be in awe of, but they are not mine.

My theology does not stand upon them being given to me. They are God's they belong to God! I am God's I belong to Him.

I am not the one claiming that God gives to me GRACE or FAITH. So I asked the question HOW does that happen. I Have received no answer to the question.

Oh, God did not give me the air, He put me in the environment that supports physical life which includes air, and as part of living, my body must take it a sufficient amount of air to sustain that life.

Calvinism says that man cannot live without receiving God's grace and faith, and that they are INDEED given to man by God. So my question stands, HOW does that happen?