Heresy Du Jour

[Yelsew]

Then as Paul questions, should we sin all the more so that grace can abound all the more? Of course not! So what do we do about the sins that we continue to do after we have been born again? John tells us to confess our sins so that we can be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness. If the Christ tells us to forgive those who offend us and seek forgiveness not 7 times but 70 times 70 times. Tells us that we should be ready every time the offender confesses his sin against us to forgive the offender. If we are to do that, how is it possible that God would not also forgive our sins even after He provided atonement for our sins?

 

[4study]

Frogman,

The atonement was a covering, yet provided by the blood of an innocent substitutionary sacrifice. Sins were covered, but not really forgiven.

Hmmm. Are you sure about that? What about these;

Rom. 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. A quote from the Psalm.

2 Sam. 12:13 ...The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Does Romans 4:5 only apply to those in the NT? Does 2 Sam. 12:13 mean David wasn't forgiven?

I'm unable to comment about reconcilliation. Atonement is the foundation so we need to get that down first.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by 4study:
Frogman,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The atonement was a covering, yet provided by the blood of an innocent substitutionary sacrifice. Sins were covered, but not really forgiven.

Hmmm. Are you sure about that? What about these;

Rom. 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. A quote from the Psalm.

2 Sam. 12:13 ...The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Does Romans 4:5 only apply to those in the NT? Does 2 Sam. 12:13 mean David wasn't forgiven?

I'm unable to comment about reconcilliation. Atonement is the foundation so we need to get that down first. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure, but Scripture is:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Heb. 8.7

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged shold have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. Heb. 10.1-3

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[4study]

Frogman,

But what do those scriptures in Hebrews point out about forgiveness? Do they say "sins were not really forgiven"? The "remembrance" of sins every year is regarding the picture. The picture itsels does not remove sin but that does not mean God did not forgive sins at all.

 

[Frogman]

They mean they were 'passed over.' The forgiveness, being done away with was realized at the Cross.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 4study:
1)What sins are atoned for?

2)If the atonement itself forgives sins, why must one have faith in the blood?

1) All sins of those who will be in heaven are atoned for.

2) Repentance and faith are the results of regeneration. The Holy Spirit gives spiritual life to those for whom Christ atoned.

 

[russell55]

But what do those scriptures in Hebrews point out about forgiveness? Do they say "sins were not really forgiven"?

Well, I think so. The word "forgiveness" really means the taking away (or remission) of sins.

Hebrews tells us that the OT sacrifices were unable to cleanse consciences (Hebrew 9) and that they were unable to take away sins. (Hebrews 10).

But Christ's offering perfects for all time those who are being sanctified. Under the new covenant, the people no longer have their sins remembered, because there is finally real forgiveness, and because there is real forgiveness, there are no more sacrifice offerings for sin. It is because the OT sacrifices were ineffective that they had to be done over and over. Now that an effective sacrifice has taken place--one that really works to cleanse consciences, take away sin, and gives forgiveness, there is no more need for sacrifice offerings. (Hebrews 10, particularly verses 14-18)

God passed over sin in the OT, He delayed His wrath (forbearance), because He was looking forward to fully and finally propitiating those sins in Christ's blood through faith. In this way He can be JUST (there is a righteous way in which He could pass over those sins) and He can JUSTIFY (completely take away sins and count as righteous) the one who has faith in Jesus. (See Roman 3:25,26)

 

[4study]

Frogman,

They mean they were 'passed over.' The forgiveness, being done away with was realized at the Cross.

Are you saying the picture was an illustration of what God was doing at that particular time? That He was "passing over" sin and not "forgiving it"?

 

[4study]

Ken H.,

1) So The Atonement does not cover all sin, just some sin, since it only applies to those in heaven.

Thanks for your response.

 

[4study]

russell55,

Thanks for your comments. I'd like to respond, but it's getting late. I'll try to post something later.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 4study:
1) So The Atonement does not cover all sin, just some sin, since it only applies to those in heaven.

Christ's atonement covers all of the sins of all of the people for whom He atoned.

 

[KenH]

Deleted - Doubled up post.

Ken H

[ March 15, 2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

[Yelsew]

Is that biblical? If Yes, then there is no hope for any of us gentiles. Sacrifice for sins has ALWAYS been for the JEWS!

 

[russell55]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Is that biblical? If Yes, then there is no hope for any of us gentiles. Sacrifice for sins has ALWAYS been for the JEWS!

I don't understand your question, Yelsew. Is what biblical? That Christ is a sacrifice for sin?

 

[The Archangel]

Is that biblical? If Yes, then there is no hope for any of us gentiles. Sacrifice for sins has ALWAYS been for the JEWS!

Oh no!!! Yikes! This is not consistent with the scriptures!

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

Ken H.'s comment

Christ's atonement covers all of the sins of all of the people for whom He atoned. That is the essence of substitutionary atonement.

My statement

Is that biblical? If Yes, then there is no hope for any of us gentiles. Sacrifice for sins has ALWAYS been for the JEWS!

Specifically the phraseology of "for whom he atoned. The first four words of the comment are true, the rest modify the truth.

Archangel, neither is Ken H.'s comment, as stated!

 

[KenH]

Yelsew,

I think you need to study the Bible with more depth.

2 Corinthians 5:21(NASB)
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken H:
Yelsew,

I think you need to study the Bible with more depth.

2 Corinthians 5:21(NASB)
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Calvin interprets this "we" to mean only the elect. How do you interpret it?

 

[KenH]

I'm not letting you off the hook, Yelsew. This verse in a letter written to a predominately Gentile church speaks of substitutionary atonement. Are you willing(you claim you have free will so let's see it in action

) to admit your previously posts were in error?

 

[russell55]

Sacrifice for sins has ALWAYS been for the JEWS!

Why do you say this? What scripture do you use to support that statement?