heresy or opinion

[Amy.G]

2. The teaching of a parenthesis Church and the stated basis for it is questions the validity of the declaration by Jesus Christ: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Therefore I consider this teaching to be heretical.

OR, I am shocked. Is this the reason you think dispensationalism is heresy?

The "work" that Christ finished was the atonement. It is never to be repeated. It is done.

But it is false to claim that dispensationalism teaches that Christ's work isn't finished!!!

Where did you ever get such a false idea?

 

[OldRegular]

The Hanegraff quotes are way beyond heresy; they are blasphemous.

I agree! Some of the stuff these people spew out is worse than that I posted, if that is possible. One prominent name I missed is the Osteen boy with the basketball arena down in Texas; and it is full!

 

[OldRegular]

OR, I am shocked. Is this the reason you think dispensationalism is heresy?

The "work" that Christ finished was the atonement. It is never to be repeated. It is done.

But it is false to claim that dispensationalism teaches that Christ's work isn't finished!!!

Where did you ever get such a false idea?

Amy.G.

I agree: Jesus Christ finished the work of atonement, He finished all the work that He came to do.

I don't believe that I have never said dispensationalism is heresy. I sat under a dispensational pastor for some 15 years and I sure did not consider him a heretic. An expository preacher, h was one of the best I have heard as long as he stayed away from "mysterium". He was not a seminary graduate, not even a college graduate. Came out of South Georgia and said "ort" every once in awhile.

I have said in the OP

Dispensationalism denies that the Church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88].

Classic dispensationalism, as I show above and in further quotes in the OP, teaches that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom. He did not, therefore He could not say I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Dispensational doctrine indeed makes the Church for which Jesus Christ died, a parenthesis, an intercalation, an interruption in God’s program for Israel. I believe that teaching is heretical.

Now Amy.G, dispensationalism does not teach that all of the work of Jesus Christ is finished. That is the reason for the pre-trib rapture [getting the Church out of the way], the seven year tribulation, and the establishment of the Jewish millennium with the rebuilt temple and the offering of blood sacrifices.

 

[thomas15]

...Classic dispensationalism, as I show above and in further quotes in the OP, teaches that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom. He did not, therefore He could not say I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Dispensational doctrine indeed makes the Church for which Jesus Christ died, a parenthesis, an intercalation, an interruption in God’s program for Israel. I believe that teaching is heretical.

Now Amy.G, dispensationalism does not teach that all of the work of Jesus Christ is finished. That is the reason for the pre-trib rapture [getting the Church out of the way], the seven year tribulation, and the establishment of the Jewish millennium with the rebuilt temple and the offering of blood sacrifices.

It really is a pity that by your own admission you spent 15 years in a dispy church under a great preaching pastor and that in your mind makes you knowledgable on the subject which sadly is in-fact not the case.

 

[OldRegular]

It really is a pity that by your own admission you spent 15 years in a dispy church under a great preaching pastor and that in your mind makes you knowledgable on the subject which sadly is in-fact not the case.

What I said about the preacher is true. Unfortunately most Baptist preachers around here are dispensational and again unfortunately most can't preach!

So quit shuffling your feet and make your point.

 

[Amy.G]

Now Amy.G, dispensationalism does not teach that all of the work of Jesus Christ is finished. That is the reason for the pre-trib rapture [getting the Church out of the way], the seven year tribulation, and the establishment of the Jewish millennium with the rebuilt temple and the offering of blood sacrifices.

All of the work that Jesus came to earth to do has been finished. I don't know of anyone who teaches differently. However, not all of God's work is done. Christ is still building His church, adding to it daily. There is a final judgment to take place. That is just 2 of the things that God has left to do. Human history is not over and God is still working.
Regarding your statement about the church being established "instead" of the Jews receiving the kingdom, that is just a gross misunderstanding of what I believe. The church has never been an afterthought of God. It was in His plan before the foundation of the earth. But Jesus plainly said that He came "for" His own (the Jews), but they received Him not. This was also God's plan as we read in Matt 13:14-15, which is a reference to Isaiah 6:9. God has blinded the Jews in order to bring in the Gentiles to build His church. But He has not forgotten them nor His promises to them and that is why when the "times of the Gentiles" is finished, God will turn again to the Jews and fulfill all the promises He made to them.

 

[Iconoclast]

All of the work that Jesus came to earth to do has been finished. I don't know of anyone who teaches differently. However, not all of God's work is done. Christ is still building His church, adding to it daily. There is a final judgment to take place. That is just 2 of the things that God has left to do. Human history is not over and God is still working.
Regarding your statement about the church being established "instead" of the Jews receiving the kingdom, that is just a gross misunderstanding of what I believe. The church has never been an afterthought of God. It was in His plan before the foundation of the earth. But Jesus plainly said that He came "for" His own (the Jews), but they received Him not. This was also God's plan as we read in Matt 13:14-15, which is a reference to Isaiah 6:9. God has blinded the Jews in order to bring in the Gentiles to build His church. But He has not forgotten them nor His promises to them and that is why when the "times of the Gentiles" is finished, God will turn again to the Jews and fulfill all the promises He made to them.

Hello Amyg,
Hebrew Israel gets absorbed into Christian Israel.

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is no longer any seperation....we are all made perfect or complete IN HIM.....This is God's design, fully revealed to the church

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

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[OldRegular]

All of the work that Jesus came to earth to do has been finished. I don't know of anyone who teaches differently. However, not all of God's work is done. Christ is still building His church, adding to it daily. There is a final judgment to take place. That is just 2 of the things that God has left to do. Human history is not over and God is still working.

He is indeed!

Regarding your statement about the church being established "instead" of the Jews receiving the kingdom, that is just a gross misunderstanding of what I believe.

I don't doubt that at all Amy.G. The doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is not one that most dispensationalists of my acquaintance are aware of. Nevertheless I have shown that it is a bedrock doctrine of classic dispensational theologians.

I have noted on other threads that many dispensational leaders are moving away from this doctrine of the Church and the idea that God has two separate peoples. Called Progressive dispensationalism it is approaching the doctrine of Covenant Premillennialism, in my opinion a very healthy move!

Sadly classic dispensationalism rebuilds that wall between Jew and Gentile that Jesus Christ broke down through His own Blood.

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Jews and the Church. The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ]. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.

 

[percho]

He is indeed!

I don't doubt that at all Amy.G. The doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is not one that most dispensationalists of my acquaintance are aware of. Nevertheless I have shown that it is a bedrock doctrine of classic dispensational theologians.

I have noted on other threads that many dispensational leaders are moving away from this doctrine of the Church and the idea that God has two separate peoples. Called Progressive dispensationalism it is approaching the doctrine of Covenant Premillennialism, in my opinion a very healthy move!

Sadly classic dispensationalism rebuilds that wall between Jew and Gentile that Jesus Christ broke down through His own Blood.

Or, I hope I can explain my thoughts.

I like you believe there is only one people of God being elected presently. I understand by adding those last three word it might cause disagreement, however bear me out. Presently the people of God are; Gal.3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I believe the OT told us this and told us from whom of all the peoples of the earth these would be taken, even after he, God had scattered them among the Gentiles (nations). I believe the NT shows that God is doing exactly what he said he would do in the OT.

I believe the elect are elected for the purpose of God. This election is not about electing some for heaven and the others by default would be elected for hell.

It is about the kingdom of God. Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God , saying repent ye and believe the gospel. Man has to be re-born as something other than what the first man Adam was created. A living soul of corruptible flesh and blood to see, enter and or inherit this kingdom. That is possible because the one living God beget in a woman a man child, his son a living soul of corruptible flesh and blood, to die for the sin of the world. He knew from the foundation of the world that he was going to do this and made a provision through a promise that would apply to his son and that was the promise of the hope of eternal life. It is because of the death of the Son of God through faith (him giving his life through faith) he received the promised hope of eternal life by resurrection from the dead, by the Living Spirit God. The last Adam.

One will enter, inherit the kingdom of God at the appearing of Jesus by resurrection from the dead and or instant change from mortal, corruptible to immortal and incorruptible. The elect have been set apart by the gift of the Holy Spirit for that purpose.

After the establishing of the kingdom of God, God will deal with all of mankind who have not been called for the purpose above.

God can raise the dead and then deal with them just as he has dealt with those whom he has called.

What is the purpose of God establishing the kingdom of God upon the earth?

Now are the saved, the elect, saved because they believed or they had/have faith or is it because God calls them for his own purpose. As long as one believes he is saved because he has faith he will not believe that God though his Son Jesus is reconciling the world to himself from Satan.

God created the first man Adam so his Son could come like that Adam and defeat Satan through death and resurrection.
Satan's presence will not be here on the earth, (to deceive) when Jesus comes to sit on the throne of his glory.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. (Satan and death was already here when God arrived)

And the Spirit God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (God was the Light, Good) And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (here upon the earth).

May or may not be off the OP. It isn't using a broad range of thought, and I mean broad.

 

[Yeshua1]

Heresy

The word heresy does not appear in the Old Testament and its usage in the New Testament appears to be primarily in reference to the Church. That does not mean that there were not heretics in the Old Testament! I do not define heresy per se as leading to damnation as does The Archangel in post #3, but he has a different standard for heresy.

I believe that those beliefs or practices that rise to the level of heresy must:

A. Question or impugn the nature, character, and persons of the Triune God as declared in Scripture.

B. Diminishes or adds to the Cross Work of Jesus Christ.

1. “Open theism” questions the omnscience of God contrary to Scripture therefore I consider it heretical.

2. The teaching of a parenthesis Church and the stated basis for it is questions the validity of the declaration by Jesus Christ: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Therefore I consider this teaching to be heretical.3. Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witness are called Christian Cults but they are both heretical. Mormonism because it is polytheistic, denies the sufficiency of the Cross Work of Jesus Christ, and impugn’s the nature and person of Jesus Christ. Jehovah’s Witness is a heretical organization because it denies the nature of the Triune Godhead and diminishes the Cross Work of Jesus Christ.

There are a number of other heresies in the Christian Faith some almost as old as Christianity itself.

4. The Word of Faith movement is a relatively new heresy, the offspring of people such as: Hagin, Kenyon, Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, Capps, Savelle, Hagin, Avanzini, Price and assorted others. Some of the most agregious teachings of these people are as follows:

From: The Kingdom of the Cults, revised by Hank Hanegraff.

1) God is a being who stands approximately six feet tall, weighs some two hundred pounds, and looks exactly like a man.

2) Faith is the literal substance that God used to create the universe, and He transported that faith with His words. Here, essentially, is what God did. God filled His words with faith. He used His words as containers to hold His faith and contain that spiritual force and transport it out there into the vast darkness by saying, ‘light, be’! That's the way God transported His faith causing creation and transformation. The way that He created the world was that, first of all, he conceived something on the inside of Him. He conceived, He had an image, He had a picture.

3) All things, including God, are subject to this ‘force of faith’ beause it works according to spiritual ‘laws’ of the universe.

4) The greatest thing God conceived of and created was an exact duplicate of himself. This duplicate god--named Adam-was God manifested in the flesh.

Snip

10) Although Jesus declared that he walked with God and that God was in Him, he never actually claimed to be God.

11) In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to die spiritually as well as physically. When He died spiritually, he died in the same way that Adam died. In other words, He lost His divine nature and was given the nature of Satan. Jesus’ death on the cross and His shed blood did not atone for our sins. The atonement took place in hell through the devil's torturing of Jesus’ spirit for three days and three nights. Unfortunately for Satan, Jesus was taken to hell ‘illegally’ because He had never sinned. This ‘technicality’ enabled God to use His ‘force of faith’ to revive Jesus’ spirit, restore Jesus’ divine nature, and resurrect Jesus’ body. Through the resurrection process Jesus was ‘born again’.

12) When a person is born again they experience exactly what happened to Jesus. Their satanic nature is replaced by God’s divine nature. The transformation is so identical to Jesus’ transformation that Christians become little gods (small “g”) and are as much an incarnation of God as was Jesus.​

How can a Dispy who holds to that church be in heresy, as he would still see jesus fulfilling his work of paying for the atonement of sins! That was the "it is accomplished!"

One could hold those holding to a Covenant "gospel of works" as being heresy also!

 

[OldRegular]

How can a Dispy who holds to that church be in heresy, as he would still see jesus fulfilling his work of paying for the atonement of sins! That was the "it is accomplished!"

THe basis of the term "parenthesis" Church is: Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, could not because He was rejected by the Jews, and that He established the Church instead. Jesus Christ said in John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now if Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, as classic dispensationalism claims, and Jesus Christ finished the work He came to do then we would be living in a Messianic Kingdom; and we are not. The insistence on a "parenthesis" Church makes a liar out of Jesus Christ and I believe that specific doctrine it rises to the level of heresy. I am not arguing that the whole of classic dispensationalism is heretical; I do, however, believe their doctrine is seriously flawed.

I have said repeatedly that I believe a movement called "progressive dispensationalism" is moving away from the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. That is a welcome move!

Howeve,r there is a movement called hyper dispensationalism which talks about the "Gospel of Paul or the Gospel for the Gentiles" as contrasted to the "Gospel of Jesus Christ". I believe that group is clearly heretical. AresMan has remarked about these people and there are a couple on this Board, not posting now!

One could hold those holding to a Covenant "gospel of works" as being heresy also!

I haven't heard about a Covenant "gospel of works" but I do agree. Anything other than the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is heretical

 

[Yeshua1]

THe basis of the term "parenthesis" Church is: Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, could not because He was rejected by the Jews, and that He established the Church instead. Jesus Christ said in John 17:4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now if Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, as classic dispensationalism claims, and Jesus Christ finished the work He came to do then we would be living in a Messianic Kingdom; and we are not. The insistence on a "parenthesis" Church makes a liar out of Jesus Christ and I believe that specific doctrine it rises to the level of heresy. I am not arguing that the whole of classic dispensationalism is heretical; I do, however, believe their doctrine is seriously flawed.

I have said repeatedly that I believe a movement called "progressive dispensationalism" is moving away from the doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. That is a welcome move!

Howeve,r there is a movement called hyper dispensationalism which talks about the "Gospel of Paul or the Gospel for the Gentiles" as contrasted to the "Gospel of Jesus Christ". I believe that group is clearly heretical. AresMan has remarked about these people and there are a couple on this Board, not posting now!


I haven't heard about a Covenant "gospel of works" but I do agree. Anything other than the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is heretical

the Church was not given to the OT prophets by God, Mystery revealed to Paul in its totality...

the work that God sent jesus to do was to die and atone for sins as the lamb of God, NOT usher in the Messianic Age! that would wait until Hs Second Coming!

 

[OldRegular]

the Church was not given to the OT prophets by God, Mystery revealed to Paul in its totality...

the work that God sent jesus to do was to die and atone for sins as the lamb of God, NOT usher in the Messianic Age! that would wait until Hs Second Coming!

People like Ryrie, Walvoord, Chafer, Pentecost, all prominent dispensational theologians would disagree with you!

 

[Yeshua1]

People like Ryrie, Walvoord, Chafer, Pentecost, all prominent dispensational theologians would disagree with you!

None of us are inspired Apostles, so maybe they saw that particular aspect wrongly?

 

[OldRegular]

the Church was not given to the OT prophets by God, Mystery revealed to Paul in its totality...

So what was Jesus Christ talking about when He said: Matthew 16:18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

the work that God sent jesus to do was to die and atone for sins as the lamb of God, NOT usher in the Messianic Age! that would wait until Hs Second Coming!

Then why do the dispensational theologians I mentioned teach otherwise.

 

[Yeshua1]

So what was Jesus Christ talking about when He said: Matthew 16:18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.



Then why do the dispensational theologians I mentioned teach otherwise.

Are they Classic or progressive Dispy teachers though?

 

[OldRegular]

Are they Classic or progressive Dispy teachers though?

I believe the 4 I referenced would be considered classic dispensationalists!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe the 4 I referenced would be considered classic dispensationalists!

I grew up on my Scofield/Ryrie bibles, now hold to a more modified "progressive" view as espoused by say staff of DTS!

 

[OldRegular]

I grew up on my Scofield/Ryrie bibles, now hold to a more modified "progressive" view as espoused by say staff of DTS!

You didn't answer my question posed earlier:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
So what was Jesus Christ talking about when He said: Matthew 16:18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Yeshua1]

You didn't answer my question posed earlier:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
So what was Jesus Christ talking about when He said: Matthew 16:18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

the Church is built upon the cornerstone of jesus, with foundations laid over that by the Apostles....

What is the question?