Heresy

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm going to study the scriptures first. One of my problems is that I've got too much info in my head from outside resources. I need to pray for amnesia and immerse myself in the word.

Amen. Let me know what passage of Scripture your studying through and I will look to and pray. Perhaps we will end up with the same conclusion.

RB

 

[Amy.G]

Amen. Let me know what passage of Scripture your studying through and I will look to and pray. Perhaps we will end up with the same conclusion.

RB

Thanks RB! :wavey:

 

[EdSutton]

I need to pray for amnesia

Personally, I'm gonna' pray for less of it.

I think some of it has come from the BB, personally.


I just can't figure out why. :BangHead: :tonofbricks: :type:

I seem to be a bit confused over how this may have happened.

Anyone have any clues about why this might be the case?

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Personally, I'm gonna' pray for less of it.

Ed

 

[Revmitchell]

I would enjoy seeing if you can show how the bible defines heresy.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

[Allan]

I'm going to study the scriptures first. One of my problems is that I've got too much info in my head from outside resources. I need to pray for amnesia and immerse myself in the word.

Count me in to..

I love this stuff. I just got done a few months ago, going through the entire book of revelation verse by verse in bible study class (for almost a year and half).
MacArther has some good stuff on this subject as well as many others but i would be glad to toss in my nickle if it might help Amy

 

[pinoybaptist]

Has anyone other than myself notice the heresy accusations get thrown around like candy? Which I find funny since baptist are primary local churches (which a few may join together to help finance mission and other evanglelization works) rather than churches like the RCC, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbeterians, etc... which have a denomination wide standard belief system. Baptist really can't call someone a heretic out side of their local church body. That's like calling a moslem a heretic. He can't really be a heretic because he doesn't claim to be a christian

You can't dissent from a body not your own. Unless of course people believe in a universality of christian believers. Like you can't call an Englishman a traitor to the American cause because that was never their cause. Just a thought:type:

I've gone the same route of reasoning and posted the same dictionary definitions a few months ago, and it just doesn't work with Baptists, my friend.

They will call anyone within and outside of their local churches heretics, and then preen their feathers with "humility" on how each Baptist church is local and autonomous and not subject to any fellowship, or bigger churches' set of doctrines and beliefs.

But, you are right, if one local church agrees in their covenant on a certain set of doctrines and practices, then the word heresy, in its strictest sense, can only be applied correctly to any of its members who acquires a different doctrine and practice from another church or sect and tries to bring it into his own congregation.

An Arminian Baptist church member such as DHK, for example, cannot meet with a Calvinistic Baptist church member such as Reformed Baptist and point a finger at him and call his beliefs heretical, and vice-versa, for the simple reason that they have their individual churches they belong to.

Calvinism is not a widely accepted doctrine even among Baptist fellowships, not to mention churches, and neither is Arminianism. Heck, even what we call Baptist distinctives may differ from one Baptist order to another. Come to think of it, even our view of Baptism does, and even our view of why Jesus was baptized differ.

 

[webdog]

I second MacArthur. His eschatology is very good, IMO.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Even this conforms with the definition of heresy, because guess who it was addressed to ?

Roman Christians, not all Christians everywhere who name the name of Christ.

Local.

 

[Beth]

interesting study

This thread caught my eye...

It is very interesting that there are to be heresies amongst the brethren, for the Lord tends to prove us through them...whether or not, I believe, we will study what some teach in our congregations and test the ideas or teachings.....1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies <139> among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

God used this method with Israel also. De 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Peter continues this idea in his second letter. 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies <139>, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Heresies come fro the flesh, and are listed among other sins in Galatians.
Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies <139>,

I think the key to discerning what is a heresy is whether it is damnable or not. The word for damnable is apoleia, with the connotation of "the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell" (Strong's quote)

Other Scriptures containing apoleia....2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways <684>; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation <684> slumbereth not.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition <684> of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction <684>.

So for me, I believe based on the Scriptures, that the heresy has to be something which leads to destruction, or to put it bluntly, hell...that denies the very basis doctrines concerning salvation such that the doctrines provide a false hope at best.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Heresy is denying one of the essentials of the faith, such as the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ.

Amen!!! I was taught the above and believe the above. We can disagree on the mechanics of salvation, that does not mean one of us is or isn't into heresy.

 

[Revmitchell]

Even this conforms with the definition of heresy, because guess who it was addressed to ?

Roman Christians, not all Christians everywhere who name the name of Christ.

Local.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Oh my goodness TS. Why does it have to be so complicated? Why would God make it so hard to understand? Why are people so divided over this? Surely the answers are in God's word, but why can't we all see it? Even on the BB, there are many different interpretations. Who's right? Is anyone right? And how did they figure it out?
This one requires a lot of prayer.

Thanks for your help. I'm interested in all your views. No stoning allowed! :laugh:

It just seems complicated the thing about apocalyptic literature is that it's writen to the people of the time and there are analogies that would have been commonly understood then. Just like reading christian works today. It would be difficult in 1000 years from now for an accurate understanding of what we mean especially if slang was used. I'm not saying its difficult but like anything you can look at the surface and get one thing but you could look at it microscopically and see a whole new world.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This thread caught my eye...

It is very interesting that there are to be heresies amongst the brethren, for the Lord tends to prove us through them...whether or not, I believe, we will study what some teach in our congregations and test the ideas or teachings.....1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies <139> among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

God used this method with Israel also. De 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Peter continues this idea in his second letter. 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies <139>, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Heresies come fro the flesh, and are listed among other sins in Galatians.
Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies <139>,

I think the key to discerning what is a heresy is whether it is damnable or not. The word for damnable is apoleia, with the connotation of "the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell" (Strong's quote)

Other Scriptures containing apoleia....2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways <684>; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation <684> slumbereth not.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition <684> of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction <684>.

So for me, I believe based on the Scriptures, that the heresy has to be something which leads to destruction, or to put it bluntly, hell...that denies the very basis doctrines concerning salvation such that the doctrines provide a false hope at best.

Yes this is good. So then an Armeniest claiming that a calvanist is a heretic is really saying that a calvinist is going to hell? Basically, which is why I find it humorous and offending that Christians are calling others heretics. See from the baptist point of view you can't really condem someone outside of your church as a heretic because they are not part of your body unless you believe in a universality of believers world wide. If you do then there should be care on who you call a heretic. Not that there aren't any out there but really calvin vs. armenius? Or LS vs. Free Grace? What are we all saved by?

 

[Beth]

yes

Saved by grace, not by works lest any man shall boast.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Saved by grace, not by works lest any man shall boast.

It was a rhetorical question. I just don't think an armeniest or a calvanist should be condeming each other to hell because on how they believe the mechanics of that grace works. We all accept the attoning sacrifice of Jesus which provides us our salvation. Those who don't (the attoning sacrifice of Jesus) and rely on their abilities for justification aren't christian. Santification and how it plays it's part of Salvation is what most of these arguments are about. The mechanics of it. IE... When it is implemented and how. Sanctification is evidence of salvation? Or a necissary part of it? Then we get into how salvation is defined. Does salvation equate to just justification? Are we justified and that is salvation. Is salvation a simple "you're declared righteous" and are positionally "safe" with God. Or is it that and more? To include sanctification and the entire process of being a christian and becoming more Christ like. Or can you loose your salvation? These are what the arguments are over. I don't think anyone has claimed salvation apart from the working of God and the Grace and the attoning work of Jesus. The problem for most is the next step. How do we define and accpet that. No one really agrees with that. Is that enought to call someone a heretic? I mentioned my fundelmental beliefs. If someone were to believe apart from that I would not consider them to be a believer. If they were in my church I would call them a heretic. If they were a part of mormonism I would call them an infidel. I wouldn't call someone who believes in the pre-trib, mid-tib, or post-trib or a premillenialist or not, or a multitude of other such speculation a heretic. maybe confused but not a heretic. I might also call someone who calls themselves a believer but lives and teaches immorality a heretic as well. Heresy by its nature is a statement about someones eternal condition. Not Whether Calvin, Luther, Arminius, Ammans, Minno Simons, Zwigli, Wesley, Spurgeon, Huss, or others were more correct then someone else.

 

[webdog]

It's actually "arminian" and "calvinist"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's actually "arminian" and "calvinist"

Cool. I'm a netoriously bad speller. I relied heavily on spell check in college. And my wife's editorial skills. Unfortunately I can't use that on these posts. But hopefully people get the point.

 

[Beth]

I agree

It was a rhetorical question. I just don't think an armeniest or a calvanist should be condeming each other to hell because on how they believe the mechanics of that grace works. We all accept the attoning sacrifice of Jesus which provides us our salvation. Those who don't (the attoning sacrifice of Jesus) and rely on their abilities for justification aren't christian. Santification and how it plays it's part of Salvation is what most of these arguments are about. The mechanics of it. IE... When it is implemented and how. Sanctification is evidence of salvation? Or a necissary part of it? Then we get into how salvation is defined. Does salvation equate to just justification? Are we justified and that is salvation. Is salvation a simple "you're declared righteous" and are positionally "safe" with God. Or is it that and more? To include sanctification and the entire process of being a christian and becoming more Christ like. Or can you loose your salvation? These are what the arguments are over. I don't think anyone has claimed salvation apart from the working of God and the Grace and the attoning work of Jesus. The problem for most is the next step. How do we define and accpet that. No one really agrees with that. Is that enought to call someone a heretic? I mentioned my fundelmental beliefs. If someone were to believe apart from that I would not consider them to be a believer. If they were in my church I would call them a heretic. If they were a part of mormonism I would call them an infidel. I wouldn't call someone who believes in the pre-trib, mid-tib, or post-trib or a premillenialist or not, or a multitude of other such speculation a heretic. maybe confused but not a heretic. I might also call someone who calls themselves a believer but lives and teaches immorality a heretic as well. Heresy by its nature is a statement about someones eternal condition. Not Whether Calvin, Luther, Arminius, Ammans, Minno Simons, Zwigli, Wesley, Spurgeon, Huss, or others were more correct then someone else.

I agree with you, brother!

 

[Marcia]

Originally Posted by Marcia
Heresy is denying one of the essentials of the faith, such as the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ.

Amen!!! I was taught the above and believe the above. We can disagree on the mechanics of salvation, that does not mean one of us is or isn't into heresy.

I should have included the atonement for sins - Jesus did not die just as a moral example or to show love. The latter view was popular among some mystics and is re-emerging with the emerging church.