Hey Calvinists--What is the role of the Holy Spirit?

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
How does it contradict my premise?? I think it contradicts yours. The Gentiles listen because God has opened their hearts (such as he did with Lydia).

I don't disagree with this, God does open people's hearts. But you are missing the point. God opens people's eyes with the message of the Gospel, which is why he must harden Israel so that they won't hear it and believe. Look at this verse in Acts:

And I will protect you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, I am going to send you to the Gentiles, 18 to open their eyes so they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God's people, who are set apart by faith in me.'

How would Paul "open their eyes"? By preaching the gospel. How are the Gentiles "set apart" (which remember means sanctified)? By faith!

If Israel were left unhardened they "might see, hear and believe" and that wouldn't have fulfilled God's purpose of Christ's being rejected by his own and killed nor would it have fulfilled the purpose of the Gentiles being grafted in.

Israel does not listen because God has not opened their hearts. What's the difficulty?? The text does not say that the Gentiles hear without aid.

You are missing it, again. Israel does not listen because God has blinded them and has hardened them. Why? If he didn't the general calling of the HS and the gospel message "might" cause them to hear and understand and believe as this text clearly says would happen if they were not hardened. That is so clear in this text! The Gentiles eyes will be opened by Paul's preaching as the verse in Acts that I quoted points out. Faith comes by hearing, but hardened Israel couldn't hear and understand, the rest can.

Did you read v. 24?? So much for that hardening theory. Some of "Hardened Israel" believed. Did you read v. 26?? They closed their eyes and ears.

Yes, in fact I've memorized them. Let's look at them:

24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive;

Hmmm. What persuaded these men to believe? The things that were spoken. The gospel is God's means of opening the eyes and the heart!

"So much for the hardening theory?" What? You don't believe that Israel is hardened now? The ones who believe apparently are the Remnant, those chosen not to recieve the hardening in Romans 11:7. Come on Larry! Hardened Israel won't believe until the hardening is over, you should know that.

Again, I fail to see how in the world you are making any argument from this text. I don't think the hardening is any secret. It is a judicial sentence from God on Israel because of their unbelief. But it doesn't answer the problem you face of OT and Gentiles.

What problem that I face?

This text contradicts your premise because it shows this judicial sentence as being necessary to accomplish God's purpose. Calvinism contends that all people are born unable to hear, see and understand the gospel of Christ and will naturally resist the calling of the Holy Spirit. Yet, this passage shows that God causes the Israelites, by a "judicial sentence...because of their unbelief," to be unable to see, hear and understand so that they could not convert and be healed.

If what Calvinism teaches about "total inability" is true, why would God need to hardened Israel, if they were born hardened by the Fall. Why blind and person that is already blinded? Or, why deafen someone who is born deaf? The theology of "total depravity" makes no sense in light of the scriptures teaching of hardening.

In fact 1 Cor 2:14 is an explicit contradiction of that.

I agree that the Spirit is necessary to call someone, which I believe is done in the general calling of the Spirit as seen (Rev. 22:17). But, you really are misusing this text. He is speaking about believers who have already received the Spirit (vs. 12) through faith (Gal. 3:14) who are learning the "deep things of God."(1 Cor. 2:10). In short, this passage is not speaking about conversion, it is speaking about how believers learn the "deep things of God."

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Bill,

Your posted dated 3/7/03 at 9:53 p.m. is correct. Calvinists need to study and learn as God has taught you that I Corinthians 2:10 means that God the Spirit illuminates deep truth to those who are indwelled by the Spirit and really want to know His truth.

One of the tenants of Hermanutics is to understand the context of the isolated verse. God is not saying that the sinner cannot understand the things of God; Paul says, 'God has revealed them {the truth} unto us {the believers--the church}.

In the sinner God never inhibits the understanding of sinners, but gladly welcomes them and the Spirit points them to Christ and the plan of salvation through the atonement.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The hardening was a judicial sentence on Israel. It increased their punishment because it increased the intensity of their rejection.

On 1 Cor 2:14, you and Ray both miss the context but adding "deeper things" when the text says the things of the Spirit of God. (It never ceases to amaze me how loose you guys are with the text). It is not talking about revealing greater truth to the saved. It is talking about the natural man. That is why it uses the words "natural man." You cannot simply change the words you don't like. The natural man is teh unsaved one. It is talking about those who don't understand the things of God, and his case study is the ones who crucified the Lord of glory which they would have never done if they had known what they were doing.

In contrast, Paul tells the divided, immature Corinthian church that they have the mind of Christ.

Your theology has led you to create a category the text doesn't. The things of the Spirit of God cannot be understood by natural man. Any theology that contradicts that needs to be changed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The hardening was a judicial sentence on Israel. It increased their punishment because it increased the intensity of their rejection.

On 1 Cor 2:14, you and Ray both miss the context but adding "deeper things" when the text says the things of the Spirit of God. (It never ceases to amaze me how loose you guys are with the text). It is not talking about revealing greater truth to the saved. It is talking about the natural man. That is why it uses the words "natural man." You cannot simply change the words you don't like. The natural man is teh unsaved one. It is talking about those who don't understand the things of God, and his case study is the ones who crucified the Lord of glory which they would have never done if they had known what they were doing.

In contrast, Paul tells the divided, immature Corinthian church that they have the mind of Christ.

Your theology has led you to create a category the text doesn't. The things of the Spirit of God cannot be understood by natural man. Any theology that contradicts that needs to be changed.

For you to say that God never inhibits the understanding of sinner is a outright contradiction of Scripture. He did it to numerous figures in teh OT so that his will would be carried out. Let's not get so carried away with our own thinking that we ignore what Scripture says.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The hardening was a judicial sentence on Israel. It increased their punishment because it increased the intensity of their rejection.

Is this all you have got to say? You have failed to deal with my arguments or the text I have presented you.

"INTENSITY OF THEIR REJECTION" Those are your words. Tell me pastor how do you get any more "intense" than Calvinism's teaching of "total inability"????????????????????????

Can you please explain why God would deafen a deaf man or blind and man who can't see as a result of the Fall???

Why would he say "otherwise they might hear..see..understand..and turn." If it was only "intensifing" their rejection? It says if the were not hardened this is what they "might" do. Please deal with the text, that is what you're always saying we are not willing to do, but now that we bring a text that is difficult for you, you practically ignore it.

On 1 Cor 2:14, you and Ray both miss the context but adding "deeper things" when the text says the things of the Spirit of God. (It never ceases to amaze me how loose you guys are with the text). It is not talking about revealing greater truth to the saved. It is talking about the natural man. That is why it uses the words "natural man." You cannot simply change the words you don't like. The natural man is teh unsaved one. It is talking about those who don't understand the things of God, and his case study is the ones who crucified the Lord of glory which they would have never done if they had known what they were doing.

Ok, Larry, lets look at the text shall we (is the NKJV ok with you?):

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." F5 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" F7 But we have the mind of Christ.

Ok, Larry how have we "changed the words"? It clearly says, "the deep things of God," in verse 10 which is what Ray and I both pointed to.

I've also highlighted verse 12 which clearly points out that Paul is referring to those who have already received the Spirit of God and therefore can understand the "deep things of God."

Paul compares the ones who have already received the Spirit to the "natural man" who does not have faith and therefore does not have the means by which to receive the Spirit, which we are clearly taught in Gal. 3:14.

So he is comparing those who are already Christians with those who are not. Those who have the Spirit can understand the "deep things of God." Those who don't have the Spirit cannot understand the deep things of God, for they are spiritually discerned and the natural man does not have the Spirit becasue he has not place his faith in Christ, since faith is the means by which the Spirit comes.

This passage, just like Romans 8 compares those with the Spirit to those without the Spirit, but it does not address the means by which the Spirit comes. Gal. 3:14 does address the means and you have ignored that passage.

Gal 3:14
"...that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

So, Larry, the issue is not what abilities does a man have after they receive the Spirit, the issue is "HOW DOES ONE RECEIVE THE SPIRIT?"

Gal. 3:14 says, "through faith." (As does many other texts)

Your theology has led you to create a category the text doesn't.

Only in your mind Larry.

The things of the Spirit of God cannot be understood by natural man. Any theology that contradicts that needs to be changed.

Well, since our theology doesn't contradict this (except in your mind) then we don't need to change it.

For you to say that God never inhibits the understanding of sinner is a outright contradiction of Scripture. He did it to numerous figures in teh OT so that his will would be carried out.

When have I ever said that "God never inhibits the understanding of sinners?" What do you think I have been teaching about hardening all this time? The fact that God does actively inhibit hardened Israel from understanding proves that they are not naturally born unable to understand as your doctrine propogates! In fact, the only reason they don't understand, is because they are hardened, "OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE...HEAR...UNDERSTAND AND TURN TO GOD."

The truth is that God doesn't inhibit someone who has not already made their choices. The scripture teaches that "He is patient with them not wanting any of them to perish." How does "patience" fit into Calvinism, has'nt God "prepared them for destruction," so why does he need to be "patient" with them?

Let's not get so carried away with our own thinking that we ignore what Scripture says.

Funny, that's exactly what I was about to tell you.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Is this all you have got to say? You have failed to deal with my arguments or the text I have presented you.

It is all I have time to say right now. This is not that difficult a subject for those who are not bent to prove something. If I time first of the week, perhaps I will deal with it then. It is simply not what you are making it out to be.

On 1 Cor 2:14, the contrast is the natural vs the saved. We agree on that I think. WHat you have changed is this. The text says that natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. That is a word of ability and says clearly "He cannot understand." You on the other hand say that he can understand. Now who are we to believe?

It further says that he cannot understand because he does not have the Spirit. It makes not sense to him. In hermeneutics, we call this the significance. It is why the unbelievers crucified Christ. The "wisdom" under discussion is the truth about salvation (cf. vv. 4ff). The natural man does not understand that wisdom and will not understand until the Spirit opens his mind.

The Spirit clearly does not do that for everyone.

I've also highlighted verse 12 which clearly points out that Paul is referring to those who have already received the Spirit of God and therefore can understand the "deep things of God."

And the contrast of v. 14 is the natural man. So you have two kinds of people: Those who have the Spirit and can understand and those who do not have the Spirit and cannot understand.

So, Larry, the issue is not what abilities does a man have after they receive the Spirit, the issue is "HOW DOES ONE RECEIVE THE SPIRIT?"

By the gift of God.

Gal. 3:14 says, "through faith." (As does many other texts)

But again, you proof text something that you have taken out of context and ignored the other clear passages of Scripture.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Your theology has led you to create a category the text doesn't.

Only in your mind Larry.</font>[/QUOTE]And in the mind of hte vast majority of orthodox theologians.

When have I ever said that "God never inhibits the understanding of sinners?"

You didn't. Ray did.

The truth is that God doesn't inhibit someone who has not already made their choices.

But this contradicts Pharoah and a host of other OT characters.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
On 1 Cor 2:14, the contrast is the natural vs the saved. We agree on that I think. WHat you have changed is this. The text says that natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. That is a word of ability and says clearly "He cannot understand." You on the other hand say that he can understand. Now who are we to believe?

Larry, someone not being able to understand the "deep things of God" which are only revealed to those who have the Spirit, cannot be conclusively linked with someones not being able to understand the gospel and the general call of the HS to come!

When you came to know Christ, can you honestly tell me that you understood the "deep things of God?" Of course you didn't! That's one of the reason's it's called a "child-like faith." It's not a full understanding, it's a faith in Christ.

Larry, you are trying to equate faith with an understanding of the deep things of God and that is just poor hermeneutics on your part, and I think you know it.

Salvation doesn't come through an understanding of the deep things of God, it comes through faith!

The Spirit comes through faith and gives us understanding, apparently He hasn't got to you yet. (that was just a joke)

The Spirit clearly does not do that for everyone.

No, your right, the Spirit only does this for those who have faith in Christ.

1. Faith comes by hearing... Rom. 10:17
2. The Spirit comes through faith... Gal. 3:14
3. And understanding comes by the Spirit... 2 Cor. 2:14

And the contrast of v. 14 is the natural man. So you have two kinds of people: Those who have the Spirit and can understand and those who do not have the Spirit and cannot understand.

Agreed, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to have faith. Does faith require understanding of the "deep things of God?"

No, otherwise it wouldn't be faith. Faith is believing even when we don't understand, it trust in the unseen. They cannot be equated, especially in a passage that is speaking of understanding "the deep things of God."

So, Larry, the issue is not what abilities does a man have after they receive the Spirit, the issue is "HOW DOES ONE RECEIVE THE SPIRIT?"

Larry said:By the gift of God.

As if I don't agree with that! The Spirit is a gift given to those with faith as seen throughout the scripture. Do I need to list them for you?

Gal. 3:14 says, "through faith." (As does many other texts)

But again, you proof text something that you have taken out of context and ignored the other clear passages of Scripture.

Larry, at least when I make that kind of accusation I back it up with an actual argument. Galatians 3 has more to do with this issue than the Corinthians passage that is for sure. What "clear passages of Scripture" have I ignored that contradict that the Spirit is given "through faith," as Galatians 3:14 clearly teaches?

You need to back up you accusations!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Your theology has led you to create a category the text doesn't.

Only in your mind Larry.</font>[/QUOTE]

And in the mind of hte vast majority of orthodox theologians.

No, the vast majority of your theologians. I don't consider most "orthodox" theologians Calvinistic at all.

The truth is that God doesn't inhibit someone who has not already made their choices.

But this contradicts Pharoah and a host of other OT characters.

Are you arguing that Pharoah didn't desire and already choose by his own will to keep the Israelites as slaves before God hardened him? This seems a bit odd, please explain.

What host of other OT characters did God harden before they made any sinful choices to go that way?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
What host of other OT characters did God harden before they made any sinful choices to go that way?

This passage might be helpful to your understanding - 1 Kings 22:19-23.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:
This passage might be helpful to your understanding - 1 Kings 22:19-23.

Nothing is said hear about hardening. This passage is so obviously anthropormorphic and symbolic in its language that you can't possibly conclude anything about "hardening" from it. Plus, look at the text:

22:23
"So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of your prophets. For the LORD has determined disaster for you."

You don't think these "false" prophets were already liars before this took place? The fact that God used lying prophets to lie to Ahab and accomplish His purpose only goes to support my premise that God hardens after they have made their choice. But nice try.