Hidden Ways, Never to be Spoken

[TheOliveBranch]

Men in the ministry are faced with sin that is evident to members of the curch. The problems are dealt with, sin is forgiven and consequence remains, but can be accepted as a part of life. When the man of God is affected, the problems become a concern of those in the congregation. When the problem is of a member, the pastor can deal with the issue along with those in relation to it.

Often, though, sins that we don't see can be the real problem. Sin that is hidden may not be noticed by others, save a few. It can remain secret. Tkae for instance, pornography. A sin of the flesh, taken into the mind through the eyes, can become one of the most dangerous and undealt-with sins in a church. It can be secret, known only if happened on by someone who sees this as sin, and may never be found out. If allowed in by one who ministers, the effects can be present,but who would know the cause? If one is part of a ministry of the church, can this sin affect others if he keeps it to himself?

I do not wish to be descriptive in pornography, or what it is or isn't. Please keep this thread clean. I am looking at this as sin and it's affects on the church. I believe this is a problem that is more prevelent than we want to believe it to be, and that we may know more about the people who lead us than we want to admit. The problem comes when we turn our backs and make it to be a minor problem that the individual should deal with. What are your thoughts?

 

[timothy 1769]

Pornography and the internet is a volatile combination. Many more brothers are viewing pornography because it is now so easy to view and yet so hard to get caught.

The internet can be positive, but unfortunately often becomes a waster of time and corrupter of souls.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Men in the ministry are faced with sin that is evident to members of the curch. The problems are dealt with, sin is forgiven and consequence remains, but can be accepted as a part of life. When the man of God is affected, the problems become a concern of those in the congregation. When the problem is of a member, the pastor can deal with the issue along with those in relation to it.

Often, though, sins that we don't see can be the real problem. Sin that is hidden may not be noticed by others, save a few. It can remain secret. Tkae for instance, pornography. A sin of the flesh, taken into the mind through the eyes, can become one of the most dangerous and undealt-with sins in a church. It can be secret, known only if happened on by someone who sees this as sin, and may never be found out. If allowed in by one who ministers, the effects can be present,but who would know the cause? If one is part of a ministry of the church, can this sin affect others if he keeps it to himself?

I do not wish to be descriptive in pornography, or what it is or isn't. Please keep this thread clean. I am looking at this as sin and it's affects on the church. I believe this is a problem that is more prevelent than we want to believe it to be, and that we may know more about the people who lead us than we want to admit. The problem comes when we turn our backs and make it to be a minor problem that the individual should deal with. What are your thoughts?

Amen, Olive (May I call you Olive?)

Of all the issues I have encountered in my life, the trap of pornography is quite possibly the scariest issue out there facing us today.
I have recently been exposed to this as it is destroying a lifelong friend of mine, and I have recently found out that a fellow Believer who tried to reach out to this friend is now ensnared in the same trap. This other Believer has now done extensive damage to his marriage. The sin of pornography is rapidly degenerating into inevitable divorce as well.

And as if this weren't bad enough: I am finding out that this is happening more and more with other people in Christianity. In other words, there is a strong likelihood that you have experienced a similar circumstance in your Congregation, along with many more on the board.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Yes, Olive is fine

This is a sad subject. I know of some that have tried to deal with this sin and fail miserably. It is so readily available at the touch of the fingertip, and so many fall into it's trap. I know of how it gets into the mind and is so very difficult to detract from it.

But what I have the most problem with is that it may be known by others in the ministry, but because of it being a sort of taboo to speak of, it is often overlooked as the sin for which it is. If someone was involved and knowingly stands before the congregation as if he had no problem with it, what kind of problems could arise? How could this problem ever be dealt with?

 

[timothy 1769]

The sinner must be confronted, in private. If he doesn't repent, confront him with others (perhaps elders in the church). If he still doesn't repent, bring it before the entire church. If he still doesn't repent, he should be kicked out of the congregation.

If for some reason this can't be done (people aren't willing to confront him, or kick him out) then separate yourself from that church and find one willing to obey God.

Matthew 18
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

1Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[timothy 1769]

This sin can be resisted.

1Corinthians 10
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[gb93433]

A friend of mine who is a pastor lost his wife to pornography. She spent hours and hours viewing pornography.She bacame deceitful and it ruined her and her relationships with her childrren and husband and those in the church. She even got to the point where she lied to her husband and started chatting with a man from another country on the internet. Eventually she visited him and committed adultery. Today she is all alone by herself and without any of her family. She became so hardened that she would not be tested nor even get counseling.

 

[Trotter]

Pornography is easily the most deadly, most insidious, and most overlooked trap to face men of God today. Not only is it rampant on the internet (about 80-90% of the 3500 new sites that spring up each day are porn), it is also readily available on every supermarket checkout lane.

My wife and I have been startled and appalled by some of the magazines that we have seen displayed for anyone and everyone to see. And I'm not talking about girlie ones. Cosmo, People, Glamour, Seventeen, and many, many others push the limits of what is and is not allowed on the covers...and show even more inside.

Pornography eats away at the heart of a man. Even though he can see that basically every female is the same (excluding minor differences), he will allow himself to be consumed with the desire for his "fix." I've seen men become violent if they were twarted in their pursuit of smut.

Pornography is much like alcohol. Before long, a drunk cannot get drunk on the same amount that he used to, so he drinks more and drinks harder stuff. With pornography, the same stuff doesn't give the same thrill, so he wants more and harder stuff. This lust can lead to the solicitation of prostitutes, rape, voyuerism, flashing, and many more sexual perversions. Sin has a price, and the price of pornography is a steep one that continues to grow.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

The sinner must be confronted, in private. If he doesn't repent, confront him with others (perhaps elders in the church). If he still doesn't repent, bring it before the entire church. If he still doesn't repent, he should be kicked out of the congregation.

If for some reason this can't be done (people aren't willing to confront him, or kick him out) then separate yourself from that church and find one willing to obey God.

I agree with Timothy 100%! If the leaders of the church are involved in sin - or hiding someone else's sin, that church should be avoided at all costs.

Without proper leadership and procedures, the church has no merit. It has "lost it's first love".

Blessings,
§ue

 

[TheOliveBranch]

 

[Xingyi Warrior]

Sorry to be the dissenting opinion on this issue, but while I agree that pornography is a bad thing, it usually is only a manifestation of a deeper problem within the situation. I've known my share of people who's relationships have gone awry both Christian and non-Christian. In many pornography was blamed as one if not the primary culprit. But in reality the situation stemmed from one of the partners not holding up their end of obligations concerning sexual matters. And most of the time it was women. That does not suprise me as our society seems to encourage women to use deprivation of sex as a punishment tactic towards men. However this tactic will always backfire. I partly blame the 20th century church as well for making topics concerning sex taboo. The church, until recently, was tight lipped on any mention of sex and considered it too personal or to be left to individuals within their respective relationships. Many people who had problems in their marriage concerning sex felt either ashamed, or that they had no place to go to seek help. Society on the other hand WAS willing to talk about sex and lots of people were willing to listen.

 

[Justified]

It makes one wonder about such a person. Claiming to be Born-Again and knowing the qualifications of such positions and knowingly stay in those positions.

And what is even be worse, is if the spouse knows about it.

And what would even be worse then that, is if the children knew about it.

And what would even be worse then the last two, is if the Pastor knew about it!

Reference: Corinthians!

 

[Justified]

Forgot one item, or maybe several.

How can a person that knows the power and holiness of God, even stay in a position in the work of the Lord?

Especially those types of sins!

 

[Psalm145 3]

Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

If you or someone you love has fallen into this sin, this tract will help, click the link at the bottom of this post. It's designed to increase the awareness of guilt. If you can read this tract and then still continue to feast on the same diet as rapists and child molesters, you're probably not even saved, you have no fear of God.

One time is too many times. "Let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints."

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/newpage21.htm

 

[TheOliveBranch]

If the person who has fallen into this trap cannot turn away, what other help is there if he doesn't make his own decision to turn away?

I read the article, Psalm, and I think it would be something that whoever is involved in pornography should read. But I don't see someone who won't admit the problem as ever being convicted by the article. I know of someone who is a chirstian, who has his wife blocking the computer, who won't discuss it with his pastor, and his children know of the problem.He continues to view sleezy movies, and who knows what else. When women that are scantily dressed come into the church, his eyes go to the "eyecatchers". Do we believe he is not saved because he won't face his problem? And if he stays away from it, does this mean it is no longer his sin? Can he ever really be free from this sin if he doesn't make the decision to break away from it?

It's really bad when the viewer of pornography sits amongst us. But it's worse when others unknowingly feed that problem by not covering up. And it's even worse if excuses are made for those viewers, and we work harder at trying to stop their habit than they do.

 

[Xingyi Warrior]

It's really bad when the viewer of pornography sits amongst us. But it's worse when others unknowingly feed that problem by not covering up.

I'll admit that Church people should hold themselves to higher standards, but this guy has got eyes and eventually he's going to have to leave the house and view people who do not hold temselves to the same standards as we do. The viewer of pornography has a problem that is going to be fed by some source. Honestly, the issue of dressing is somewhat subjective. I can look at a woman wearing a string bikini on the beach and I am not compelled to seek out eroticism via the web or any other source. Do I think shes sexually attractive? Yep, I'm a red blooded man but this aint gonna send me over the edge. There are some people however, who can get sexually excited just by seeing the general form of a woman in a busines suit. Those poeple have issues that even conservative dress codes are not going to remedy. And as for the woman who is covering up for her husbands's behavior, I'll lay you odds that there is more to that situation than meets the eye. The family is likely disfunctional and the wife could be contributing to the problem. This may not be the case, but I've seen it more often than not. In my experience lots of infidelity, ponography, lust, and related malfeasances in a marriage usually has some root in sexual problems within the marriage. I've lnown many woman who's husbands have suffered similar distractions and, I'll say again, it was partly their fault. Guys are interested in sex. And if the wife is holding out, or not holding up her obligations to her husband in a marriage then the husband is going to be compelled to seek out other avenues. I've seen it happen to the best of Christians. Often in such a situation the woman will respond to such behavior by "shutting their spouses off" thus complicating the problem. The women never seem to realize that perhaps the lack of sex is whats causing the problem in the first place. Its tough to accept the responsibilty that you may be a contributing factor to such a problem but unless someone does its just going to get worse.

 

[Ulsterman]

For anyone interested here is a sermon I preached on the subject of pornography.

http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermon.asp?SermonID=34238&ContributorID=4526

 

[Psalm145 3]

Ulsterman,
Thank you, Pastor, for giving us a link to your sermon. It was very helpful and encouraging. I pray that many saints will benefit from this message.

Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

 

[Xingyi Warrior]

Ulsterman, thats a lot of information and well researched I might add. However, I disagree on many of your assumptions.

Pornography creates an addictions, just like alcohol, tobacco or drugs.

First off I do not believe that pornography creates addictions. This is, in part, due to the fact that there is no known research that I am aware of that identifies people suffering withdrawl symptoms when deprived of pornographic materials. Alchohaul, tobacco, and various drugs all have associated withdrawl effects that are well documented and thats why there are clinics for people who are suffering withdrawl. Is viewing pornography habit forming? Probably.

When a man is aroused all kinds of chemical signals are sent to his brain - resulting in neuro chemical addiction.

When we perform any function all kinds of neuro chemical signals are sent to our brain. The specific kinds you are alluding to are also documented as occuring after any sensational experience such as riding a roller coaster, base jumping, or bungee jumping, etc... However I don't know any people who are addicted to any of the above. Therefore its a stretch to assume that because of the neuro-chemical processes (of which even brain science specialists' knowledge is shaky)that the implied addiction is occuring (more research needs to be done).

The real world can never live up the fantasy world. The real wife can never match the fantasy wives. The wife is a real person, who has spent all day at work helping provide for the families needs, or she has been at home with children, changing nappies, cleaning kitchens cooking meal, how can she compete with the paper dolls conjured up in photographic studios?

There has been lots of research conducted in human sexuality on this subject. When polled, men overwhelmingly prefer real life sexual intercourse to fantasy encounters. Recent surveys that I've seen cited porn useage among singles as almost pandemic, slightly lower in frequency among married men who describe their marriage as fair to poor, and even less frequent among married men who describe their marriage as average to good. Now my observations have not been formally quantified but it would seem that there could be a relationship between frequency of sexual intercourse and an individual's predisposition to view pornographic materials. This is, of course assuming that the single population's frequency of sexual encounters is less than that of the other two groups, and as well the frequency of sex of the married but unhappy group to the happily married. Of course more research would need to be done but I say they are safe assumptions.

. She can’t. When fantasy takes over reality the husband begins to feel he has been short-changed, that he has drawn the short straw, and he becomes disinterested in his marriage.

Another assumption. I have no actual quantitative data, but my personal experience suggests that one of the biggest issues among couples breaking up is sexual compatability issues. Marriage is about two things principally - sex and procreation that results from the former. Of all the fringe benefits of marriage all but those two can be satified by relationships on the friendship level. Take sex out of the marriage and you have none. Before I was happily married I was sexually active. I had multiple partners and can say from experience that some were better than others. Sex is not something that takes care of itself, like anything it takes work. A successful sexual relationship is both planned and spontaneous at times and like anything needs a little variety and shaking up at times to be interesting. Men instincively are drawn to women who overtly want sex. This is chemical (pheromone) and kinesiological and will occur with any woman including his wife. If the wife wants sex then the husband is going to give it to her. If the wife does not want sex or has in part, let the sexual aspect of the marriage become stale, then the husband is going to be tempted to stray to other avenues such as pornography.

America’s National Council for the Protection of Children & Families surveyed 5 Christian universities on this issue and discovered that 68% of male students had intentionally looked for pornography of the Internet, 10% were frequent users of porn & 5% had a problem with pornography.

Pornography is not forcing itself off on anyone. It is popular because people are buying it with increasing frequency. Why, we might ask? In many other countries such as Japan and places in Europe the public proliferation of pornographic materials is much more liberal and those countries often have less frequency of divorce and sexual crimes (which are often linked to porn) than we do here in America. Furthermore, as I pointed out on another thread, christian dating services such as the one advertized in the banners on this website are fastly becoming more prevalent and used than secular ones. Again why is this? Could we pehaps be experiencing some manifestations of the church as a whole misshandling the needs of an ever growing single population? And are these single people, in their angst, more apt to succumb to the base influences that are readily available? Are married people who's sex lives are substandard by comparison as well? I do not remotely suggest to have the answers but i will not advocate the all too common tactic of Christians of focussing on the sock while ignoring the puppeteer.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Xingyi Warrior:

Pornography is not forcing itself off on anyone. [/QUOTE]


WRONG!!! If I did not have filters on this computer the porn mongers would be piping it into my home. It is horrible to think of all the children who are exposed to this monster accidentially. I want to add that I feel pornagraphy is addictive and that when in withdrawel people will hurt for it. I am curious as to why you seem to be defending it.

Murph