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Hierarchy in Baptist Churches
- Thread starter saturneptune
- Start date
Good question. Our Presbyterian brethren would claim they are not hierarchical in their church government. They see the authority in the church vested in elders. The Papist system is a true hierarchy with one man who calls the shots at the top.
Even in elder lead Baptist churches there is not one person in charge at the top.
Pastor lead Baptist churches can operate differently. In some of those churches the pastor reigns with almost dictatorial impunity. The deacons/elders have little say. Still, there are some churches where the pastor has very little say. The deacons/elders are the ones who give him his marching orders.
Baskin Robbins may have 51 flavors, but Baptists rival the ice cream giant in their own right.
saturneptune
New Member
A hierarchy is external to the local church. And yes, I was a Presbyterian for 26 years. I have been a Baptist for 35.
saturneptune
New Member
As I said, I was a Presbyterian. This is one of the main reasons I am now a Baptist. A local church has all the wisdom of a presbytery, a synod, a general assembly, the pope, a council of bishops, etc. I do not want a higher authority dictating to me what our budget will be, who I can call as a pastor, whether or not I can get rid of a pastor, how I modify my church building, what Sunday School material I order, etc.
If there is a dictator in an autonomous church, then the congregation or elders, depending on their form of government, can boot him out the door. No problem. Several decades ago, we had deacons that thought they "ran the church." The congregation has the right to take away his ordination. So there are plenty of checks. A higher form of government does not provide a solution. A presbytery accomplishes nothing except waste time, money, and space. The work of the Lord is done at the local church level.
Hopefully a Bible believing and Bible behaving local church will have far more wisdom than a pope or Council of Bishops. It may not have the collective wisdom of a presbytery,synod or general assembly however.
Was this within the Presbyterian church you were associated with or your current Baptist church?
Earlier you said deacons thought they ran the church. But in reference to the same situation you said the congregation has the right to take away his ordination. Was it one deacon or several?
Do you have elders in your church?
I think a good church is one elder lead with lay elders that are well schooled in the Bible and meet the biblical qualifications. I could see a senior pastor, asst pastor and maybe three good lay elders. These guys shouldn't be yes men nor should they allow mob rule of the church to influence them.
I myself have been in churches where the church board is made up of families and moved pastors in and out as soon as he disagreed with them. These types of churches never grow.
I myself have been in churches where the church board is made up of families and moved pastors in and out as soon as he disagreed with them. These types of churches never grow.
saturneptune
New Member
Honestly, I do not know why I respond to any of your posts, because they always turn into an insult. Anyway, the deacon I speak of was at the Baptist church I am in now before I got there. I learned about him from members and church minutes. Yes, the congregation did have the right to take away his ordination, but at the time, I believe it was in the 40s, they did not have the backbone.
This was just one deacon. The deacons at my church now are totally different. Deacons are servants and not a governing authority such as elders. We serve the congregation and give advice if asked. At present we do not have elders, but have discussed it. It seems the discussion of elders has become more frequent as we get more members that have a reformed mindset.
Why do you think it is just "a reformed mindset"? Isn't it a biblical mandate? What do you think of the authority of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1?
When I was with the Plymouth Brethren there was a plurality of elders and that was in a more Arminian context.
I think it is a shame that many Baptist churches have deacons but no elders. That's out of biblical kilter. Some of those churches actually are against the office of elder and they are vocal about it.
I was also wondering what the "reformed" mindset had to do with the discussion of elders. It seems to me that the "reformed" mindset would be more for an external hierarchy (as independent church government is about as far from "reformed" as one can get).
should be able to help, but in practical terms, many times a small local church might hve a financial situation, pastor/elders 'fooling around", teaching bad doctrines etc, and will need some higher authority outside to come in to straighten things out!
Uhh.....baloney
Are you being taught this at your Baptist church, or is it residue from your lengthy Pentecostal training?
But we already have the "Higher Authority." The local church is not the church government, but its members. Their authority is the Word of God. In cases that you mention, the members should function as the body of Christ - if it means meeting in homes and abandoning a worship facility or digging deeper to provide for its members, or disciplining and/or expelling immoral pastors/elders, or correcting bad doctrines, etc. Too often, and very apparently, higher authorities outside the church have the same negative issues as such local churches going through these types of issues (and this, I believe, presents a greater danger than issues within the independent church).
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
The Baptist church I belong to is one among several that make up a Association that has a name to identify each Association from their sister Associations. One time a year each Association is called into order to report on finances and membership ect. It lasts a couple of day and sister associations are invited to correspond by letters and delegation and visitors. There is preaching and lunch served. The Association have no power to lord it over God's heritage nor have any ecclesiastical power over the churches, reserving the right to withdraw from any church acting disorderly. Each Association when in session is made up of delegates sent by each church which are the Association when called in order by the Moderator. Elders are preachers that have been ordained by their home church that meet the qualifications. Preachers are not called Reverend but Elders, Deacons are also ordained by their home church. The government is with the body of each church, Deacons and Elders having only one vote.
would say that it would be mainly how it functioned while in the Assemblies of God...
As a NMatist church has local autonomy though as to how it will govern itself, what it teaches, spends funds etc...
just saying that still have experienced first hand seeing large baptist churches split down middle due to either pastors not living when voted out, or elders deciding to 'force their agendas!"
how would those things get resolved?