Historic PreMil

[Dave G]

I'm sorry, I'm not Roman Catholic, I still hold to sola Scriptura, where Scripture has the last word in theological matters.

Neither am I.
I heard the word of God in an independent Baptist church not far from where I currently live, and was raised in it ( as well as attending it ) from the age of 12 to the age of 37.

I have always trusted in the Scriptures alone.

I've encountered too many who have claimed,"The Spirit told me this" or "The Spirit told me that", all the while contradicting God's sure Word.

God's Spirit, if He speaks, will never tell His people anything that contradicts His word. That's why we are told to test the spirits, whether they be of God ( 1 John 4 ).

 

[Blank]

Neither am I.
I heard the word of God in an independent Baptist church not far from where I currently live, and was raised in it ( as well as attending it ) from the age of 12 to the age of 37.
I have always trusted in the Scriptures alone.

God's Spirit, if He speaks, will never tell His people anything that contradicts His word. That's why we are told to test the spirits, whether they be of God ( 1 John 4 ).

Agreed, but what has all this to do with historic premillennialism?

 

[Dave G]

Agreed, but what has all this to do with historic premillennialism?

My mistake. Perhaps I misunderstood the reason for your thread.

If you're looking for information on what it is and who teaches / taught it, then there are yet people out there who do...
There's just not that many of them.
Most today, even most Baptists, I've found teach much of what's laid out in "Dispensationalism";

That is, "the rapture" ( where the Lord Jesus comes again for His people in the clouds but not to the earth ) followed by 7 years of the worst tribulation ( plagues, earthquakes, etc ) such as has never been seen before, followed by His actual coming to the earth and ruling and reigning from Jerusalem for 1,000 years, followed by the Judgement, followed by the new heavens and the new earth in which all the saved will live with Him in the new Jerusalem.

However, if you're looking to see what the Lord says about it without any "helpers", then my best advice is to ignore what men say about it and look to God's word alone for the timing of it .


I wish you well, my friend, and I will make this my last post in your thread.
May God bless you in your studies.

 

[37818]

The rapture is pre-wrath, pre-mill.

 

[JesusFan]

Spurgeon, and Robert Mounce

Read Mounce commentary on Revelation

 

[JD731]

Does any one know of solid pre-mils besides George Eldon Ladd ?

It seems to me that everyone on earth is practicaly pre-mil, seeing as how the mil has not ocurred yet. It would have helped to have the question framed better.

My thoughts;
Using logic and reasoning, If Christians are told not to fear, who would not fear such an awful time as is described by the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, a time of trouble like has never been or ever will be after it, the indignation, the day of darkness and not light, where probably more than three forths of the worlds population will persish in eleven hundred and ninety days? If the pre trib rapture takes every single saved person of this church age, plus the resurrected bodies of those who have died before he comes for us, leaving only unsaved people on the earth in the beginning, and if God raises up two witnesses to preach the gospel of the kingdom and who gets 12000 apostle Paul like bachelors saved to preach this gospel all over the earth during the first 3 1/2 years and if Jesus Christ returns at the end of the seven years to kill all who are not saved, it appears that he will begin his mil reign with only saved people. The beginning none saved. The end all saved.

1 Thess 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[Blank]

However, if you're looking to see what the Lord says about it without any "helpers", then my best advice is to ignore what men say about it and look to God's word alone for the timing of it .

Comparing scripture with prehistoric millennialism, I find somewhat confusing is their blending of Israel with the Church, otherwise I might be on board.

 

[Blank]

It seems to me that everyone on earth is practicaly pre-mil, seeing as how the mil has not ocurred yet. It would have helped to have the question framed better.

You're right I should have said Historic (or classical )Premil. Remember, the Amil types would say we are in 'the mil'
My thoughts;

Using logic and reasoning, If Christians are told not to fear, who would not fear such an awful time as is described by the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, a time of trouble like has never been or ever will be after it, the indignation, the day of darkness and not light, where probably more than three forths of the worlds population will persish in eleven hundred and ninety days? If the pre trib rapture takes every single saved person of this church age, plus the resurrected bodies of those who have died before he comes for us, leaving only unsaved people on the earth in the beginning, and if God raises up two witnesses to preach the gospel of the kingdom and who gets 12000 apostle Paul like bachelors saved to preach this gospel all over the earth during the first 3 1/2 years and if Jesus Christ returns at the end of the seven years to kill all who are not saved, it appears that he will begin his mil reign with only saved people. The beginning none saved. The end all saved.

Agreed, that would also be double jeopardy for the Church.
What is meant by 'the end all saved'?

 

[JesusFan]

Comparing scripture with prehistoric millennialism, I find somewhat confusing is their blending of Israel with the Church, otherwise I might be on board.

Some Historical premils such as Spurgeon held to the church now being spiritual Israsel of the NC, but also held to National Israel being converted as unto Lord Jesus at His second coming

 

[Blank]

Some Historical premils such as Spurgeon held to the church now being spiritual Israsel of the NC, but also held to National Israel being converted as unto Lord Jesus at His second coming

Didn't Spurgeon pick that up from Gill?

 

[JD731]

You're right I should have said Historic (or classical )Premil. Remember, the Amil types would say we are in 'the mil'
My thoughts;

Agreed, that would also be double jeopardy for the Church.
What is meant by 'the end all saved'?

End of the great trib, the judgment of the great day, etc.``, sorry. I should have used a comma.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (the beginning of the great trib), and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Spoken on Wednesday of the last week of the ministry of Jesus on the earth.

MT 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (aion = age)?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved (delivered): but for the elect’s (Israel's) sake those days shall be shortened.

1) Translation of the church from earth to heaven - leaves no saved person on earth.

2) Attention transferred from church to Israel during first 3 1/2 years of the 7 years of Daniel's week with multitudes of every nation converted.

3) Second 3 1/2 years of 7 years during which no one else is saved and the wrath of God is poured out on his first born son, Israel, (Ex 4) and this nation is purged of her sin by being purged of her sinners through the white hot persecution of his arm, Satan, and his man of sin. The seven years are political in nature and the kingdom of God on the earth will be recovered by him.

7 ¶ But when he (John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

This leaves few people alive on the earth and no unsaved person on the earth to begin the mil.

Faith and study and reason and logic.

Interesting prophetic reading about this time in history. I encourage reading the whole context of which the following is an excerpt.

Isa 24:1 ¶ Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

The reaction of Daniel when he saw this same event: It made him sick.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

 

[Blank]

1) Translation of the church from earth to heaven - leaves no saved person on earth.

Where would you place The Judgment of the Nations? Mt 25:31 to the end of the chapter...

Matthew 25:31-32 ESV
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[JesusFan]

Didn't Spurgeon pick that up from Gill?

Unknown, but there has always been those of us persuaded by scriptures God has not fully finished dealing with national Israel

 

[Blank]

Unknown, but there has always been those of us persuaded by scriptures God has not fully finished dealing with national Israel

Agreed, no Replacement Theology here.

 

[JD731]

Where would you place The Judgment of the Nations? Mt 25:31 to the end of the chapter...

Matthew 25:31-32 ESV
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Obviously this event is after his coming as the conquering King in Re 19. Also, by comparing scriptures in different portions of the Bible where this subject is dealt with, we can learn that two judgments take place after his coming, one for his nation Israel and another for the gentile nations. It seems that those Jews who are saved and yet alive (though few in number) when he comes will be sealed in righteousness without the possibility of sinning again while the gentile nations are judged on the basis of how they treated Israel during the great tribulation. Those who mistreated them would obviously be aligned with the Satanic agenda of eliminating the Jews. Therefore they would not have a national identity in the Mil.

One interesting truth of the gospel accounts is how they confirm the truths we are telling. Exactly 1/3rd of the chapters concern themselves with the final 8 days of the ministry of Jesus Christ on this earth. There are a total of 89 chapters in the gospel accounts with 29 of them devoted to the events of these eight days. One can track each day , beginning and ending in the gospel of Mark because he deals with them chronologically. This is how I know the sermon on the mount was given on Wednesday, or on the fourth day of the series.

Luke 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,

Matt 24:24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple:

When God leaves the temple it is a big deal. The glory of the Lord has departed Israel. This is the last time Jesus has been in the temple but it is not the last time he will be in the temple. There were two days, Thursday and Friday, or days 5 and 6, corresponding in his prophetic occurrences with the two days when both he and the nation has been absent the land of Israel. (considering God's days are likened to one thousand years) Both Jesus and Israel left the land as a matter of dying. Both will be back and Israel's preeminence over the nations will be restored when that happens. Both are resurrected very early on the third day. The parables of Jesus during this week tells the whole story to the end and the marriage supper that Jesus, of which he showed so much interest, is the inauguration of his earthly kingdom.

John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The seventh day is a day of rest and Jesus rested the full day and then rose from the dead in a glorious body on the 8th day, the day after the sabbath. Israel too will rest on the seventh day and at the end, the beginning of the 8th day, the day of God, will be glorified forever. The mil is one thousand years long and is a day of rest. The day of God is the following day and is an eternal day with no night.

To teach that there is no 1000 years reign of Christ during the 7th thousand years of time is to support the mystery of iniquity that was already at work during the days of Paul the apostle.

Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lord dwelleth in Zion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Does any one know of solid pre-mils besides George Eldon Ladd ?

No

 

[John of Japan]

John R. Rice was pre-mil and pre-trib, but not a dispensationalist, so he qualifies as historic premil. He agreed with some of dispensationalism, but critiqued it in various books he wrote.

 

[JD731]

John R. Rice was pre-mil and pre-trib, but not a dispensationalist, so he qualifies as historic premil. He agreed with some of dispensationalism, but critiqued it in various books he wrote.

When you say John R Rice was pre-Mil and pre-trib, but not dispensational, what does that mean? Was it the translation of the church from earth to heaven that he thought would occur before these events? What did he teach was the purpose of God for these trib and mil events?

Logic and common sense would teach us that if the church is complete and gone some other set of rules are necessarily set in place if time and people continued on after it, no?

 

[John of Japan]

When you say John R Rice was pre-Mil and pre-trib, but not dispensational, what does that mean? Was it the translation of the church from earth to heaven that he thought would occur before these events? What did he teach was the purpose of God for these trib and mil events?

Logic and common sense would teach us that if the church is complete and gone some other set of rules are necessarily set in place if time and people continued on after it, no?

He was taught the typical SBC postmil position at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. After that he came to his historic premil position on his own by simply studying the Bible and interpreting literally. Famous pastor of Highland Park Baptist Church (Chattanooga) and founder of Tennessee Temple, Lee Roberson, came to his position the same way. One day he preached on the Rapture, and someone told him he was premil, but he didn't even know what that meant!

Rice included the OT saints in the church, so he believed that in the rapture they would go up just as church age believers did. He opposed the church as beginning at Pentecost and only including Church Age saints in a number of his books, with the rationale that the most important thing about Pentecost was that 3,000 people got saved, not the change in dispensations.

He believed that the rapture and tribulation were to punish the earth and prepare for the 2nd Coming and millennial reign of Christ. I don't have access to my library right now and my Rice books, so more than that about his doctrine will have to wait.