Historic Premillennialism defended

[Yeshua1]

So Is the only difference between Historic Premil and Disp Pre mill the timing of the rapture?

what else is different between these two views?

mainly that there is an actual rapture, as Historical pre mil see Rapture is the Second Coming!

 

[Yeshua1]

We hold that the Messianic Age will be where the Messaih actually rules and reigns over the earth, that satan is really bound, and that all peoples/nations on earth worship God and Christ alone!

Your view negate/deny all of that from ever happening!

 

[OldRegular]

We hold that the Messianic Age will be where the Messaih actually rules and reigns over the earth, that satan is really bound, and that all peoples/nations on earth worship God and Christ alone!

Your view negate/deny all of that from ever happening!

Don't know who you are addressing but the Bible teaches in Revelation 21, 22 that all the redeemed will worship GOD in the New Heavens and New Earth. That is the message of Isaiah 66 also!

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't know who you are addressing but the Bible teaches in Revelation 21, 22 that all the redeemed will worship GOD in the New Heavens and New Earth. That is the message of Isaiah 66 also!

And before that happens, Jesus will rule over all of his enemies here on the earth, in the Messianic Age!

 

[OldRegular]

And before that happens, Jesus will rule over all of his enemies here on the earth, in the Messianic Age!

You simply refuse to believe Scripture rather than Darby's epiphany!

 

[DHK]

Dispensationalists destroy Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks!

Perhaps the interpretation of Daniel's 70th seek destroys Amillenialism.

Then you might consider Gods remarks to Elijah who was fleeing from Jezebel about the 7000 in Israel. Elijah would have made at least 7001!

A totally irrelevant statement.

I can reconcile two verses in John with Revelation 20:1-6. The First and only Resurrection to date is that of Jesus Christ, Those who have part in the First Resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, are those who are saved by HIM. It is foolish to say that apocalyptic language of Revelation is more "clear cut" than the words of Jesus Christ recorded in John 5:28, 29. Dispensationalists cannot reconcile their doctrine of errors with John 5:28, 29 and that is the truth.

The scripture is clear that Christ is the first-fruits of them that rose again, i.e. believers or first resurrection. Thus, in a sense, he is part of the first resurrection--the first phase. He is the first-fruits.
Thus the first resurrection hasn't taken place yet. More commonly it is called the resurrection of the "just," or "the rapture." And it refers to more than just one person.

Furthermore, preeminent dispensational doctrinaire John Walvoord, former president of Dallas theological Seminary disagrees with your remarks on specific time. Walvoord writes in Major Bible Prophecies that the time lapse between “the Rapture” and the “Second Coming” will be more than seven years [pages 283, 293]?

Every one has their own opinion and he is entitled to his. I am not sure in which context you quoted him, nor does it really matter to me. The first resurrection takes place before the tribulation, and the second resurrection takes place takes place after the Millennial kingdom. Those are the resurrections.
The first coming (rapture) takes place before the tribulation and the second coming takes place after the tribulation or at the end of it. Perhaps this is where you are confused.

 

[OldRegular]

Preeminent Dispensationalist John Walvoord on the Resurrections

The following view is by John F. Walvoord, a contemporary dispensational theologian, and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary. The information is excerpted from Major Bible Prophecies, page 376ff.

The Origin of the First Resurrection

The term “the first resurrection” is found in Revelation 20:5-6: “[The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.] This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

Theologians who attempt to put all the resurrections together into one grand resurrection at the end of the present age find in the expression “the first resurrection” sufficient proof that there is no previous resurrection. It does not take much investigation of Scripture, however, to find that this is a false deduction. Several resurrections precede that which is called “the first resurrection.” This becomes evident when the order of the various resurrections is laid out.


The Order of Resurrections

Though there are numerous restorations to life in both the Old and New Testaments, resurrection in the sense of being given a resurrection body that will last forever did not occur until Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. His resurrection is the first resurrection [Matthew 28:1 -7; Mark 16:1-11; Luke 24:1-12; John 20:1-18].

The second resurrection is recorded in Matthew 27:50-53. The Scriptures declare that when the earthquake occurred at the time of Christ’s resurrection, tombs were broken open and bodies of holy people who had died were raised to life. Later, after Christ was raised from the dead, a number of these individuals were seen in Jerusalem. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people [vv 51-53]. The sequence of events seems to be that at the time of the earthquake when Christ died the tombs were broken open - that is, unsealed. The resurrection and the appearance of the people who were raised from the tombs, however, did not occur until after Jesus’ resurrection.

The third resurrection will occur in connection with the rapture of the church [1 Thessalonians. 4:13-18; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53]. At the Rapture “the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” [1 Thess. 4:16-17]. This resurrection apparently refers to everyone who is baptized into the body of Christ from the Day of Pentecost until the Rapture. Old Testament saints seem to be resurrected at a later time.

The fourth resurrection is prophesied in Revelation 11. Two witnesses who will be killed for their testimony will be left lying in the streets of Jerusalem and will be raised from the dead on the third day [v. 8]. “After the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, ‘Come up here.’ And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on” [vv, 11-12].

The fifth resurrection is described in Revelation 20:4-6. As the context indicates, this resurrection has to do with the martyred dead of the Great Tribulation. John wrote, “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years” [v. 4]. If the resurrection at the Rapture covers all of the saints of the present age since Pentecost, this resurrection relates to the saints who will die in the period between the Rapture and the Second Coming. This will include the martyred dead that are mentioned here specifically. It is amazing how scholars have ignored the plain statement of this passage and tried to make it a general resurrection of all the dead or even make it a reference to the new birth of the believer at the time of his faith in Christ.

The Scriptures here show plainly that this resurrection refers to a particular class of people who will be raised in connection with the Second Coming of Christ.

The sixth resurrection will be that of the Old Testament saints: “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” [Daniel 12:2]. Though the fact that all people who die will be raised is commonly assumed in the Old Testament, there are relatively few references that speak specifically of their resurrection. This is one of the major passages.

A second major prediction of this resurrection is found in Isaiah 26:19: “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the clew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.”

A third major reference is found in Ezekiel 37 in connection with the restoration of the children of Israel. Though the figure is largely that of the restoration of the nation of Israel, bodily resurrection is also mentioned in verses 13-14: “Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.”

According to Daniel 12:1, this resurrection will come at the close of the tribulation period described in Daniel 11:36-45: “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered”. The resurrection is mentioned specifically in the verse that follows. Though the chronological arrangement of this passage in relation to the resurrection of the Tribulation dead is not given in Scripture, it is probable that this will follow the resurrection of the Tribulation dead, and the Old Testament saints, accordingly, will be in the sixth and final resurrection of the righteous.

The last resurrection has to do with the judgment of the Great White Throne as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15. In this resurrection all the wicked dead, who up to this time have been in Hades, will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire.

The order of these seven resurrections should make plain that the resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 is not first in the sense of being before all previous resurrections. If that is not the meaning, what does the term “the first resurrection” mean?


The Nature of the First Resurrection

As the context indicates, the resurrection of the Tribulation dead will follow the Tribulation but precede the millennial kingdom. In Revelation 20:7-10 the millennial kingdom follows the resurrection of the Tribulation dead. During this time Satan will be bound [vv. 1-3]. At the end of the thousand years Satan will be let loose and will cause a rebellion against God. Then he will be judged and cast into the lake of burning sulfur [v. 10]. Accordingly, the point of the term “the first resurrection” is that it is first, not in the sense of being number one or prior to all resurrections, but in the sense that it occurs before the final resurrection, the resurrection of the wicked. In other words, the Tribulation dead will be raised before the millennial kingdom and before the resurrection of the wicked at the Great White Throne judgment. To use the term “first resurrection” to refer to the new birth, as amillenarians do in evading the teaching of this passage on the millennial kingdom, or to refer to it as the Rapture, as posttribulationists do, based on the idea that there could not be a resurrection before this, are both inadequate explanations of the expression. The doctrine of resurrection falls into place when one recognizes that that there is a series of resurrections in Scripture, beginning with the resurrection of Christ and ending with the resurrection of the wicked. In this series the resurrection of the martyred dead of the Great Tribulation is resurrection number five and is probably followed by the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. The resurrection of the wicked is the last resurrection.

My comments follow in the nest post!

 

[OldRegular]

Note: The reader will note that Walvoord’s exposition of this passage is not consistent with the dispensational hermeneutic of literal interpretation of Scripture, or as Ryrie insists, taking Scripture at face value. He concedes that

resurrection in the sense of being given a resurrection body that will last forever did not occur until Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. His resurrection is the first resurrection [Matthew 28:1 -7; Mark 16:1-11; Luke 24:1-12; John 20:1-18].

Then he proceeds to make the ‘first resurrection of Revelation 20:6 the fifth resurrection and goes on to say that it is called the first resurrection, as follows: “Accordingly, the point of the term “the first resurrection” is that it is first, not in the sense of being number one or prior to all resurrections, but in the sense that it occurs before the final resurrection, the resurrection of the wicked.” Remarkably Walvord, after applying a non-literal interpretation of Revelation 20:6, has the arrogance to write: “It is amazing how scholars have ignored the plain statement of this passage and tried to make it a general resurrection of all the dead or even make it a reference to the new birth of the believer at the time of his faith in Christ.”

 

[DHK]

Note: The reader will note that Walvoord’s exposition of this passage is not consistent with the dispensational hermeneutic of literal interpretation of Scripture,]

The dispensational "hermeneutic is simply that God works in different ways in various economies throughout history using different men to do so. That is it.
It will be also noted that although the average dispensationalist interprets the Bible literally so do many covenant theologians and others that are not dispensational.

There are many kinds of dispensationalists. They are not a homogenous group. There are just as many dispensationalists as there are Baptists. Therefore your quotes from Walvoord as "the authority" is irrelevant.

Let me use a better example that might work for you?
Your beliefs are Calvinistic in nature. Therefore you should believe exactly the same as Luke does correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

You simply refuse to believe Scripture rather than Darby's epiphany!

There is trhe first resurrection, blessed are those who partake in that, and then 1000 yeras later is the second one, that is from the bible!

 

[OldRegular]

There is trhe first resurrection, blessed are those who partake in that, and then 1000 yeras later is the second one, that is from the bible!

I would simply note that it has been almost 2000 years since the First Resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That cannot be truthfully denied!

 

[DHK]

I would simply note that it has been almost 2000 years since the First Resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That cannot be truthfully denied!

MacArthur, Zuck and Walvoord (as joint commentators) both agree that the resurrection of Christ was the first-fruits, being the first phase, of the first resurrection. The first resurrection is yet to come. The first phase only has taken place.

 

[RLBosley]

I was really hoping to see more interaction from evangelist6589 in this thread. He starts this thread and then stops posting after the first page. That seems to be a consistent trend of his.

I was hoping at least for more than the expected debate between OR and DHK...

Speaking of OR, are you back for good this time?