Historical Revisionism

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Okay, are you saying that Jefferson is incorrect in the Declaration of Independence or what?

I am saying he has no Bible basis for what he says - that is all.

That doesn't mean I hate it. It was exactly the kind of statement the colonies needed to unite them. It was the ultimate propaganda piece (and no, propaganda is not always bad). It needed a few key phrases that really stuck out and Jefferson nailed it.

It doesn't have to be biblical to be effective.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am saying he has no Bible basis for what he says - that is all.

That doesn't mean I hate it. It was exactly the kind of statement the colonies needed to unite them. It was the ultimate propaganda piece (and no, propaganda is not always bad). It needed a few key phrases that really stuck out and Jefferson nailed it.

It doesn't have to be biblical to be effective.

No. I am apparently more of a Calvinist than you are.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Second that.

I purposefully left out part of TND's quote. I don't accept that Christian people founded America. It was founded by an amalgamation of folks who saw the wisdom of, as TND put it, including Christian principles in a secular government.

I don't think I have ever heard it put that way before, but it is very well worded.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

No. I am apparently more of a Calvinist than you are.

Nope - not going into that debate

 

[church mouse guy]

Nope - not going into that debate

The point is that if total human depravity is true, and it is, then human rights can only come from the Creator.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The point is that if total human depravity is true, and it is, then human rights can only come from the Creator.

Okay. lets take another tack since we know we disagree on that point.

Jefferson claims that government gets its power from the consent of the governed, not from God.

How can totally depraved man be trusted with the ability to choose and give consent to its government? Can we really trust totally depraved man with that power?

 

[church mouse guy]

Okay. lets take another tack since we know we disagree on that point.

Jefferson claims that government gets its power from the consent of the governed, not from God.

How can totally depraved man be trusted with the ability to choose and give consent to its government? Can we really trust totally depraved man with that power?

You have changed the subject.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

You have changed the subject.

I disagree. We are discussing Jefferson and the DOI. We are discussing his philosophy and the historical perspective of it.

Of course, you are free to ignore my question.

I am pointing out that Jefferson can't have it both ways. He can't say that man is incapable of establishing rights and capable of establishing government. He can't say that God gave rights but did not authorise governments.

Please feel free to ignore my question. But it is not off subject.

 

[ShagNappy]

You have changed the subject.

90% of your posts are on completely different topics than this entire discussion started with. You are bouncing between topics like a pinball to avoid the original question. Book. Chapter. Verse. Where in the Bible does it state God endowed men with the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? You have stated repeatedly that these rights come from God. Either it's in the Bible or it's not. If it's not, you are adding to the Word of God. I think we can all show where that's a sin.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I purposefully left out part of TND's quote. I don't accept that Christian people founded America. It was founded by an amalgamation of folks who saw the wisdom of, as TND put it, including Christian principles in a secular government.

I don't think I have ever heard it put that way before, but it is very well worded.

Except that you have run with it and failed to understand its context. Additionally, you ignore that these Christian principles can only come from the minds, words and pens of Christians inspired by their faith in God. Therefore, whether Jefferson was a Christian or not, he and men we know were Christians placed these principles in the Declaration. Of the 56 signers, 54 were Christian, including a Catholic. I do not include two Unitarians, of which Jefferson was officially one, though as I stated earlier in the thread, he was a self-described "sect to himself." The truth is, Christian men founded this nation on Christian principles, though worded in a secular manner consistent with their belief that government should not influence religion. They did not believe the opposite was true.

I very much believe that when Jefferson wrote in the Declaration that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", he was referring to the truth that God has granted those inalienable rights to all men, and it becomes the responsibility of government to uphold them.

No, God does not, as so many have unrealistically and unreasonably asked for on this thread, state anywhere for the record that He has given equality nor these three rights in particular, nor any others. Nonetheless, that is no proof He did not grant them, any more than the lack of the appearance of the word "Trinity" or "Rapture" in the Bible is evidence against those doctrines. By His very nature and being it is more than obvious -- or rather, it should be -- to anyone that such rights and privileges are derived from God Himself. I cannot agree with anyone who says otherwise.

Are we granted equality in our creation? There can be no doubt, despite what some would say about election, which as understood by Calvin/Reformed actually goes against the concept of created equality.

1 Timothy 2, NASB
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.​

"All" is the Greek word pas, and although it is at times qualified to mean only a limited subset of some universal set, not in this case. God desires all men to be saved, an equality unsurpassed if realized, and come to a knowledge of truth. He also judges all men based on their acceptance of that truth. Paul writes pointed in Galatians 2:6 that God shows no partiality to any man, therefore God has created all people equally in that they have the same spiritual responsibility and potential as well as ultimate opportunity, and God judges all in the same way. Governments, as Jefferson stated, have a responsibility to protect that equality in that no one should be above the law, nor for that matter beneath it.

Can there be any doubt God give life? Any thought to the contrary is ludicrous. I see no need to discuss this right, but if someone wants to challenge me, I'll be happy to provide the evidence.

What about liberty? God gave man dominion over all the Earth in Genesis 1:26 and He created man in His own image, stated in the next verse. God made humans free to think, learn, speak, reason, imagine, dream, set goals, be creative and artistic, develop tools that multiply the power of human energy, change their environments and change themselves, invent, develop personality, love, worship, nurture relationships and make decisions and choices. We are born free. No question. As life is from God, it is He who has granted us that liberty.

Free moral agency is clearly taught in the Bible. God defines good and evil, announces rewards and punishments, and proclaims warnings and pleas. But God leaves people free to “choose” between the options of good and evil.

Deuteronomy 30
19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants ... "​

This freedom is absolutely essential to character development and spiritual growth. People must be free to make choices and to experience both the good and bad consequences of their choices. Where tyranny rules, it is obvious such oppression -- lack of liberty -- interferes with God's plan.

And what of the pursuit of happiness? Solomon summarized it best in the wonderful work of reflection on a life that was well-lived, but could have been lived better.

Ecclesiastes 9
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
---
7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.​

In the Bible, happiness is an emotion that is welcomed, but not to be sought after. We seek God, and joy is a result of closeness to Him. But joy is different from happiness. Joy is a spiritual contentment and pleasure that comes from the Holy Spirit. A person must be in fellowship with the Spirit and through Him with the Father and the Son in order to experience joy, and it transcends circumstance.

Secular people also pursue happiness, and seem to achieve it through the acquisition of family, satisfying work, and material things. However, only we in Christ know the true happiness God has granted that all men can know. The caveat, of course, is that while happiness may be obtained on a temporal basis without Him, only we know the happiness and pleasure of learning, as did Paul, of the contentment in any circumstance through knowing Him. All men may know such contentment -- happiness if you will -- but only through Christ will they ever know it permanently.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is how equality, life, liberty and happiness are God endowed. You can argue against it you wish. I believe any such effort is fruitless and will be proven wrong. Jefferson, Christian or not, was right.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Powers of government come from the populace, not from God, at least according to Jefferson.

From the Declaration of Independence:

Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed

 

[Rippon]

Of the 56 signers, 54 were Christian, including a Catholic. I do not include two Unitarians, of which Jefferson was officially one,

No, you are wrong TND. John Adams was a Unitarian as well as Robert Treat Paine, the son of Thomas Paine. So there were at least four signers who were not Christian.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Powers of government come from the populace, not from God, at least according to Jefferson.

So you deny the Bible's truth?

Romans 13, NASB
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. ​

From the Declaration of Independence:

Which does not supercede nor negate the Bible, therefore your "evidence" is lacking. And that is besides the fact that it ignores Jefferson's context. How about we share the whole quote, m'kay???

Text: Declaration of Independencehttp://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.htmlhttp://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Note that Jefferson said that governments are instituted among men to secure God given rights. According to Romans 13:1, governmental authority does not exist except those given from God.

Caught in lies an manipulation again. Epic fail, CTB, epic fail.

 

[Crabtownboy]

So you deny the Bible's truth?

Romans 13, NASB
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. ​

If you really, really, really believe this then you should never, never, never criticize any government or its actions as they were ordained by God.

 

[church mouse guy]

If you really, really, really believe this then you should never, never, never criticize any government or its actions as they were ordained by God.

How do you leap from "established" to "ordained"? At any rate, it is you Democrats under Obama who have labeled any criticism of the government as racist.

Back to historical revisionism, Jefferson is correct that human rights are from Jesus. Man is incapable of knowing right from wrong. This point was made at Nuremberg when the Allied prosecution said that there was a natural law that rendered German law null and void.

 

[InTheLight]

Back to historical revisionism, Jefferson is correct that human rights are from Jesus.

Now there are three things you need to prove:

1. The Bible says that "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is a human right.
2. That Jefferson said these rights come from God.
3. That Jefferson DID NOT say "Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed".

Good luck!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Now there are three things you need to prove:

1. The Bible says that "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is a human right.
2. That Jefferson said these rights come from God.
3. That Jefferson DID NOT say "Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed".

Good luck!

I proved the first two, and there is nothing inconsistent with them and the third, given the whole context of both. I hope you're not trying to agree with the troll here regarding his statements that defy logic. :BangHead:

 

[InTheLight]

I proved the first two,

 

[church mouse guy]

I proved the first two, and there is nothing inconsistent with them and the third, given the whole context of both. I hope you're not trying to agree with the troll here regarding his statements that defy logic. :BangHead:

Thanks! I would like to ask those who think that rights come from governments if there is anything wrong with 1930s German law, etc., etc., etc.

 

[InTheLight]

Thanks! I would like to ask those who think that rights come from governments if there is anything wrong with 1930s German law, etc., etc., etc.

German law in the Nazi era is a non sequitur. You are proving nothing by constantly bringing it up as if it were relevant.

If you want to go there, is there nothing wrong with US law nowadays? Roe v. Wade? Legalized gay marriage? Did these "rights" come from God?