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history lesson
- Thread starter jilphn1022
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I sincerely believe that Ed wants to see my review of the Matt 24 chapter --
And so here it is -- in living color.
Matt 24
Matthew 24
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, ""Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.''
Here we see a clear reference to the future event in 70 A.D the destruction of Jerusalem. However that observation alone brings up the next question which is “when does it happen” and as we see in the question the Disciples view the end of the temple as the end of the age and as the time when Christ returns.
Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ""Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be [b]the sign of Your coming[/b], and of the end of the age[/b]?''
The disciples view the end of Jerusalem as “the end of all things” but to be certain they ask about specifics, the destruction of the temple, the signs of Christ’s coming AND the end of the age. (Not knowing if they are all the same event or not). However as we learn in Matt 24 the Coming of Christ IS the end of this age for that is exactly how John describes His Coming (Rev 19) and the END of all the wicked along with the resurrection of the saints (Rev 20).
Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "" See to it that no one misleads you.
5 ""For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 ""You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
First Christ gives them signs clearly seen but that are not signs of the end –
Then He gives them signs that will increase over time - like birth pangs.
Matt 24
7 ""For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "" But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Thus ends the section on increasing signs like labor pangs.
And so here it is -- in living color.
Matt 24
Matthew 24
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, ""Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.''
Here we see a clear reference to the future event in 70 A.D the destruction of Jerusalem. However that observation alone brings up the next question which is “when does it happen” and as we see in the question the Disciples view the end of the temple as the end of the age and as the time when Christ returns.
Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ""Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be [b]the sign of Your coming[/b], and of the end of the age[/b]?''
The disciples view the end of Jerusalem as “the end of all things” but to be certain they ask about specifics, the destruction of the temple, the signs of Christ’s coming AND the end of the age. (Not knowing if they are all the same event or not). However as we learn in Matt 24 the Coming of Christ IS the end of this age for that is exactly how John describes His Coming (Rev 19) and the END of all the wicked along with the resurrection of the saints (Rev 20).
Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "" See to it that no one misleads you.
5 ""For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 ""You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
First Christ gives them signs clearly seen but that are not signs of the end –
Then He gives them signs that will increase over time - like birth pangs.
Matt 24
7 ""For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "" But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Thus ends the section on increasing signs like labor pangs.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The time line according to Matthew 24
1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end
[/quote]
Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
These events could easily apply to the early church, persecution by the Jews, Persecution by pagan Rome, persecution by Papal Rome and to the final persecution of the last days. All would see these same events.
Then Christ points to the fact that all of this continues until the Gospel is preached to all the world AND then the end comes
Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.[/B]
1. Only One Gospel - and it is THIS Gospel –
2. the precross Gospel the same as the post-Cross Gospel preached into all the World.
Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.
Matt 24
15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Where was “the holy ground” in Matt 24:15 in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?
Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And [b]the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD;[/b] it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''
Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecedented in extent and length of time - in all of history.
1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end
[/quote]
Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
These events could easily apply to the early church, persecution by the Jews, Persecution by pagan Rome, persecution by Papal Rome and to the final persecution of the last days. All would see these same events.
Then Christ points to the fact that all of this continues until the Gospel is preached to all the world AND then the end comes
Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.[/B]
1. Only One Gospel - and it is THIS Gospel –
2. the precross Gospel the same as the post-Cross Gospel preached into all the World.
Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.
Matt 24
15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Where was “the holy ground” in Matt 24:15 in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?
Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And [b]the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD;[/b] it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''
Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecedented in extent and length of time - in all of history.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "Great power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.
1 Thess 4
16 For the [b]Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout[/b], with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Matt 24
23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "" Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rev 6 (when sixth seal is broken)
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll[/b] when it is rolled up, and [b]every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 Then the kings of the earth[/b] and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free[/b] man hid themselves in the cave[/b]s and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, ""Fall on us and hide us[/b] from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;[/b]
17 for the great day of their wrath[/b] has come, and who is able to stand?''
Those who think the Son of man has already come in the clouds with great power and glory have seriously watered down those terms.
Matt 24
37 ""For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 ""For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
World wide destruction of the flood is as the world wide event of the Son of Man -
2Peter 3 makes the same point - that just as the earth was destroyed by water - so it is to be destroyed by Fire at "the coming" of Christ - "His return" as Peter calls it.
Peter tells the NT saints to fix their hope “completely” on the coming of the Son of Man”
1Pet 1
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
So too Matthew speaking decades after the Cross shows us that Christ Himself “Does not miss” the all important focus of the saints in His review of events of the future leading to “the coming of the Lord”
The time line according to Matthew 24
1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll[/b] when it is rolled up, and [b]every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 Then the kings of the earth[/b] and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free[/b] man hid themselves in the cave[/b]s and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, ""Fall on us and hide us[/b] from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;[/b]
17 for the great day of their wrath[/b] has come, and who is able to stand?''
Those who think the Son of man has already come in the clouds with great power and glory have seriously watered down those terms.
Matt 24
37 ""For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 ""For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
World wide destruction of the flood is as the world wide event of the Son of Man -
2Peter 3 makes the same point - that just as the earth was destroyed by water - so it is to be destroyed by Fire at "the coming" of Christ - "His return" as Peter calls it.
Peter tells the NT saints to fix their hope “completely” on the coming of the Son of Man”
1Pet 1
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
So too Matthew speaking decades after the Cross shows us that Christ Himself “Does not miss” the all important focus of the saints in His review of events of the future leading to “the coming of the Lord”
The time line according to Matthew 24
1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end
Ed Edwards,
"Tell me you did read the part where this
Eschatology was develped by myself
(in Christ, with lots of guidance from the
Holy Spirit). My Eschatology
was not develped by some historical figure (or
group of demoninations)."
GE
This is exactly why your 'eschatology' is not merely suspicious, but smells a mile far of burnt straw.
"Tell me you did read the part where this
Eschatology was develped by myself
(in Christ, with lots of guidance from the
Holy Spirit). My Eschatology
was not develped by some historical figure (or
group of demoninations)."
GE
This is exactly why your 'eschatology' is not merely suspicious, but smells a mile far of burnt straw.
BR
"The time line according to Matthew 24
1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end"
GE
The time line according to all the Bible and pure Protestantism
1. church age continues Matthew 24 from first to last verse; Revelation 20:1-5 = 'Millennium' = Tribulation time Matthew 24 from first to last verse <== you are here!
2. Second Advent of Jesus and resurrection event (one) Matthew 24:29-32, Rev 20:6-15.
"The time line according to Matthew 24
1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end"
GE
The time line according to all the Bible and pure Protestantism
1. church age continues Matthew 24 from first to last verse; Revelation 20:1-5 = 'Millennium' = Tribulation time Matthew 24 from first to last verse <== you are here!
2. Second Advent of Jesus and resurrection event (one) Matthew 24:29-32, Rev 20:6-15.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
you missed 8 chapters and 5 posts starting here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1136699#post1136699
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1136699#post1136699
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Here are some dearly held BAPTIST beliefs.
I don't recommend attacking them on a place called
THE BAPTIST BOARD.
----------------------------
Baptist Distinctives, Wikipedia article on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_Distinctives
Baptist Distinctives is a name usually given to a list of doctrinal titles that have traditionally described what Baptists as a whole believe. The Baptist Distinctives usually include:
* Biblical Authority
* Autonomy of the Local Church
* Priesthood of All Believers
* Two Ordinances (Believer's Baptism and the Lord's Supper)
* Individual Soul Liberty
* Saved Church Membership
* Two Officers (Pastor and Deacons)
* Separation of Church and State
To aid in recall, these distinctives are often arranged as shown above to spell the acronym "Baptists."
Baptists who continue to hold the foundational beliefs of Christianity define marriage as the union of one man and one woman.
Baptists are not unified on doctrines related to the end times, although the premillennial position has become a major force among Baptists who continue to hold to the foundational beliefs of Christianity.
-----------------------------------------
* Priesthood of All Believers
and
* Individual Soul Liberty
jointly tell me I'm responsible before God about what
I believe about & react to HIS HOLY WRITTEN WORD.
Did Luther know after 1964 that the Super Powers
at the time (Russia & USofA) could both destroy all
life on earth? I did (after 1969 or so).
Did The Reformed folk know that after 1964 mankind
could do anything in the Bible Prophecies
and the Book of Revelation (on earth)
save pull off the Rapture2 and Resurrection2?
we all know in 2007 -- or do we?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
BobRyan said:
I don't think so???
I blew them out of the water earlier.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Tee Hee, the subject-generated paid Google ads
are strange???
Revelation 17 Reveals:
( http://www.worldslastchance.com/?gclid=CLq8yLmnhpACFSG8GgodOU9jtg )
Identity of Next Pope. He will be the
last Pope. Learn Bible Prophecy.
It didn't take reading long to see it
is Seventh Day Adventist (SDA)
(My Grandfather Edd Edwards left me a couple
of SDA books from when He checked into SDA
about 1917-1920. )
are strange???
Revelation 17 Reveals:
( http://www.worldslastchance.com/?gclid=CLq8yLmnhpACFSG8GgodOU9jtg )
Identity of Next Pope. He will be the
last Pope. Learn Bible Prophecy.
It didn't take reading long to see it
is Seventh Day Adventist (SDA)
(My Grandfather Edd Edwards left me a couple
of SDA books from when He checked into SDA
about 1917-1920. )
Last edited by a moderator:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
GE said:
Sorry, the nearest stock sequence I Have is this:
EE:
Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here
But I have been surprised before
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1136699#post1136699
However - Ed -- that list is for you to respond to - to see if your view can survive the details given in those texts.
One thing I do notice in your presentation is that you tend to present your preference over what the text is actually saying. It is 99% your statements about what you had hoped to find in scripture - and 1% a reference to a text that can not be SHOWN to be making your case.
Here is a perfect example of your blatant re-arrangement of the text showing what you would have preferred to find in scripture without giving any proof at all that the text must be re-arranged in that way for any other reason than meeting your own preferences.
You SHOW that you NEED vs 21 to come AFTER vs 31 --
Very good - you show very well that you NEED vs 21 to come AFTER vs 31 -- but the reader can easily see -- it does not!
And so having stated your preferece -- you walk away as if you had proven something.
in Christ,
Bob
However - Ed -- that list is for you to respond to - to see if your view can survive the details given in those texts.
One thing I do notice in your presentation is that you tend to present your preference over what the text is actually saying. It is 99% your statements about what you had hoped to find in scripture - and 1% a reference to a text that can not be SHOWN to be making your case.
Here is a perfect example of your blatant re-arrangement of the text showing what you would have preferred to find in scripture without giving any proof at all that the text must be re-arranged in that way for any other reason than meeting your own preferences.
You SHOW that you NEED vs 21 to come AFTER vs 31 --
Very good - you show very well that you NEED vs 21 to come AFTER vs 31 -- but the reader can easily see -- it does not!
And so having stated your preferece -- you walk away as if you had proven something.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
All nice statements of your preference having wanted to find "fall away into the arms of Jesus" instead of "our Gathering together to him" and as Paul says "Caught UP to meet the Lord" 1Thess4.
You show what you "needed to have found in scripture"
"fall away into the arms of Jesus"
And more specifically "Now I want to write to you concerning our GATHERING together to Him as our falling into the Arms of Jesus. That day will come LONG BEFORE the falling away where the man of sin is revealed... DON'T BE waiting to see the man of sin and the lawless one doing great miracles! You will be gone LONG before that time".
As if THAT is the answer to "some of you are being disturbed by the suggestion that you missed the return of Christ".
Basically your entire dicussion is 180% opposed to the direction of the text. It merely shows how you needed to spin the text around.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
2Thess 2 (NASB)
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed[/b], the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
What the Bible calls "The Apostacy" you re-invent as "our Falling into the Arms of Jesus".
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed[/b], the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
What the Bible calls "The Apostacy" you re-invent as "our Falling into the Arms of Jesus".
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
BobRyan said:
It is about your many long posts on page 17.
I've already argued them into the ground.
As for my arguments, I'm really not trying to prove anything.
You are free (it is the Baptist way) to follow any teacher
you want. I'm just sharing what I found out that gives
me hope.
I note for the others that Brother BobRyan has done
the same & done it well.
1 Peter 3:15 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason
of the hope that is in you,
with meekenesse and reuerence,
1 Peter 3:15 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord.
Always be prepared to give an answer
to everyone who asks you to give the reason
for the hope that you have.
But do this with gentleness and respect,
[/FONT]
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I didn't do that.
The Bible did:
Is this the Bible? (retorical question, YES it is the Bible):
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our assembling vnto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued
from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter,
as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ
were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,
Is this the Bible? (retorical question, NO it is not the Bible)
{as determined by poll in the Baptist Board, the Peterson
is considered a poor commentary on the Bible but
NOT the Bible}:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-6 (The Message by Peterson):
1 Now, friends, read these next words carefully.
Slow down and don't go jumping to conclusions
regarding the day when our Master, Jesus Christ,
will come back and we assemble to welcome him.
2 Don't let anyone shake you up
or get you excited over some breathless report
or rumored letter from me that the day
of the Master's arrival has come and gone.
3 Don't fall for any line like that.
4 He'll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar.
Having cleared away the opposition,
he'll then set himself up in God's Temple as "God Almighty."
5 Don't you remember me going over all this in detail
when I was with you? Are your memories that short?
6 You'll also remember that I told you
the Anarchist* is being held back until just the right time.
* note not Antichrist (the instead of Christ)
but anarchist (one who practicess anarchy or lawlessness)
But The Message cleary shows (verse 1) that "the day when
our Master, Jesus Christ", comes "we will assemble to
welcome him" is the same exact thing.
Note how adroitly Peterson dodges the 'apostasy'
or the "departure of Earth" by just leaving it out
The Geneva (a pre 1830 - Darby myth) doesn't say
'apostasy' (the English word 'apostasy" existed then
with the meaning of 'departure from the truth' as today.
Why didn't they use 'apostasy'? They used 'Departure')
Departure of what? Jesus promised to take me home
to be with him some day if I live till he comes gets
me or if I die before the comes to get me:
I'm going to be raptured1 or resurrected1 someday.
Now I don't know which, but I sure hope it might
be the rapture1. I know by experience of others that
dying is a real bad trip, though everybody stands
a chance of dying once, though heaven is the goal.
After her death sentence in June 1999 was announced
my first wife (who died in Dec 1999) had a dream
that she was on the side of a hill. On the other hill
was a bright and beautiful city. In between was
fences with razor-wire, brambles, thorns, lurking
snakes, and other obsticales. But that was the only
way to get to the bright city. So the tribulations even
of death are worth suffering for the bright goal
set before us. In this world we shall have tribualtion,
but Jesus has overcome the world!
Anyway, I promised my First Wife I would see her at
the Pretribulation Rapture2 or come to heaven
to see her one of these days. Sorry, I didn't have
the nerve to tell her some folks say they ain't no rapture1
until all the saints die in the Tribulation Period.
Sorry, folks "Tribulation Period" is something put
on unsavaed lost unredeemed BAD people, the
unelect, unsaints, unchosen.
Don't people read the clearly pretribulation rapture2
picture here? Don't people see that God isn't
going to put GOD'S WRATH on His chosen elect
saints?
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For it is a righteous thing with God,
to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you,
7 And to you which are troubled, rest with vs,
when the Lord Iesus shall shewe himselfe
from heauen with his mightie Angels,
8 In flaming fire, rendring vengeance vnto them,
that doe not know God, and which obey
not vnto the Gospel of our Lord Iesus Christ,
9 Which shall be punished with euerlasting perdition,
from the presence of the Lord,
and from the glory of his power,
That is pretty strong langauge: that it shows God's
righteousness (and He is all Righteous) when God
fries the bad guys - when God doth 'recompense tribulation
to them' - when God pours out his Vials of Wrath upon them,
When He sends them into the Tribulation Period.
Sorry Tribulation Period is on the bad guys, not on
the good guys (the righteous in Christ).
How many of us have the RIGHT to be righteous in
Christ? Nary a one of us.
How many of us have the RIGHT to be taken from
the earth before God's outpouring of Wrath on
the unrighteous -- to be in the Pretribulation Rapture2?
Nary a one of us.
Stay in Christ. Stay ready. The Pretribulation Rapture2
is coming soon. The Post-tribulation Resurrection2 Only
is coming 3½ to 7 years laster than soon.
We in Christ do not have to suffer through the Wrath of God,
AKA: the Tribulation Period.
This message is a history lesson based on God's Holy Scripture written
prior to 96AD* in the first century (0001AD-0100AD).
* AD = Annto Dominii - Latin for Year of our Lord (Messiah Jesus)
but some prefer to use CE (Common Era). What is the
Common Era on earth? Why it is the Era of our Lord (Messiah Jesus)
Somebody want to shout 'AMEN'?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
An easy example of that "falling" as Paul uses the term (exegesis being practiced here) is Gal 5 "you have Fallen from Grace" which can not be wrenched into "you have fallen from Grace into the Arms of Christ". In 2Thess 2 "our gathering together to Him" is the terminology Paul uses for the Rapture and NOT "falling away and the man of sin revealed".
Ed Edwards said:
As I said - you get high marks for always stating your own POV and what you hope to find to be true in the text.
Yes -that is the Bible and that is the part that is unmistakably talking about the rapture.
I think all agree there.
The part you need to "prove" is where you want to take terms like "apostacy" and "falling away" and transform them into "Falling into the Arms of Jesus".
That is the "stretch" that your argument needs - but that has yet to be supported in scripture.
Notice in my quote above --
What the Bible calls "The Apostacy" you re-invent as "our Falling into the Arms of Jesus".
Notice your "claim" as yet unsupported?
Ed Edwards said:
So please begin to prove your argument.
Not sure what translation tries to get "departing" to become a synonym for "apostacy" and "Falling away" - at the very best it is an ambiguous synonymn where the meaning of words in english change over a period of 4 centuries . (Imagine such a thing happening!). I believe that the english language changes enough in 400 years that that "departing" and "falling away" - "Apostacy" are all the same thing if we go back 400 years in English.
In any case - your quote is "Falling into the arms of Jesus" remember?
what I see you doing is NOT showing ANY bible translation using the term "Falling away in the Arms of Jesus" -- rather you are going back to an english context 400 years ago and taking "departure" as used in common english 400 years ago trying to argue that in that age it could not have been a synonym for the current "apostacy" and "falling away".
Quite a stretch Ed!
Let's review the way writers would have translated this in the 14th and 16th centuries as you seem to want to go back to 1599.
Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,
Note: The "Early Version" of the "Wycliffe Bible", hand-printed about 1382
As we can clearly see IT WAS acceptable in the context of the english language 5 and 6 centuries ago to consider "departing away" as a synonymn for "dissension" and apostacy.
But when we come forward into more current forms of english so that the meaning to the current reader remains clear with the content of the actual greek -- what do we find?
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
King James Version (KJV)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
these are not translators necessarily opposed to the PTR -- they just are not willing to wrench the text to insert it.
in Christ,
Bob
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