I really can't say. That might be something for me to look up.
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History of an Error: Wrong dates can lead to Bad Theology
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
I really can't say. That might be something for me to look up.
Well, we have discovered one more thing you don't know anything about.
1. Biblical eschatology.
2. English grammar.
Snarkiness and smileys don't go well together. It tells me that you don't really have anything substantial to offer in the way of rebuttal.
Tom, thans for this insight.
Many times an eschatological discussion has ended with an empasse over the detached week, and the assignment of a lack of ability to tell time, to the God who invented time for us.
This:
2Pe 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Is restating this:
Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
That God dwells in eternity.
This also, restates God's relationship to Time:
Rev 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Present tense 'I am' .
He sees all of Time at once.
He is presently there, at the beginning and the end of Time, always.
This is understood by the definition of "eternity".
This attribute is overlooked,possibly due in part to those mistaken dates.
Implications?
It causes partial preterists, and post tribbers to miss each other coming and going.
For instance:
3&1/2 years....yes, spelled out.
But then there is this:
Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Obviously there is a rescue of those who endure 60 days under the reign of the man of Sin, after he flips the switch and declares himself god.
Obviously, the tribes of the earth mourn at this rescue, and call for the rocks to cover them from the face of the Wrathful Lamb, whose children they have persecuted unmercifully for 60 days.
Dispies hang the most on the 70 weeks misapplication, and so pretribbers have the most to lose by eliminating the error.
Many times an eschatological discussion has ended with an empasse over the detached week, and the assignment of a lack of ability to tell time, to the God who invented time for us.
This:
2Pe 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Is restating this:
Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
That God dwells in eternity.
This also, restates God's relationship to Time:
Rev 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Present tense 'I am' .
He sees all of Time at once.
He is presently there, at the beginning and the end of Time, always.
This is understood by the definition of "eternity".
This attribute is overlooked,possibly due in part to those mistaken dates.
Implications?
It causes partial preterists, and post tribbers to miss each other coming and going.
For instance:
3&1/2 years....yes, spelled out.
But then there is this:
Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Obviously there is a rescue of those who endure 60 days under the reign of the man of Sin, after he flips the switch and declares himself god.
Obviously, the tribes of the earth mourn at this rescue, and call for the rocks to cover them from the face of the Wrathful Lamb, whose children they have persecuted unmercifully for 60 days.
Dispies hang the most on the 70 weeks misapplication, and so pretribbers have the most to lose by eliminating the error.
Thank you for making my point for me. I answered a question put to the forum by Jordan Kurecki exposing the fact that no competent theologian formulates doctrine based on the misguided chronology of Irish Archbishop James Ussher.
As you lacked any sort of cogent response, you made an ill conceived and incorrect attack on the grammar of my simple declarative sentence.
Had you actually been able to formulate a cogent response you would have done so and not offered the rather childish grammar Nazi objection.
post-trib premillennialism.
That is what I am.
Christ will return after the tribulation, there will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ and a change of those in Christ to rule with him and they will be judged according to the things they did in the flesh. There will be a thousand year judgement period and then another resurrection including judgement.
Then will be the end, of death. And the kingdom delivered to the Father.
You didn't really answer the question. You just made a quick snide comment that had no real substance. Do you really think I am trying to "link premillennialism to Usshers chronology"? Why would I even do that?
You are not reading for content and understanding. For me to give a cogent response there must first be a cogent comment to work off of.
beameup
Member
Since Daniel is being discussed...
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Matt 24:15
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains Mark 13:14
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Matt 24:15
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains Mark 13:14
Yes, those verses fit. But this already happened in the first century.
It is not possible, in my view, for this type of abomination to even exist today, because there is no longer a divinely-recognized temple to abominate, or for Him to desolate.
"19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”" John 4
You only quoted Matt and Mark. Luke also has this discourse and clearly shows that the abomination was the Roman armies that surrounded Jerusalem prior to it's destruction in 70AD.
Luk 21:20-22 NASB - "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
Compare to your verses:
Mat 24:15-16 NASB - "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mar 13:14-16 NASB - "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house; and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
Mar 13:14-16 NASB - "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house; and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
Also Tom had a great point.
:thumbsup:
Good summary.
I was pretrib dispy for a long time, raised in it and taught it. But it simply isn't there, so now I'm historic premill leaning amill.
beameup
Member
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:3-4
All the Kohen have been trained, all their garments made, all implements of the Temple have been recreated.
All that is needed is for the "Holy Place and the Most Holy Place" to be erected, in order to resume oblation & sacrifice.
I was going to write a long response here, but I remembered that Kenneth Gentry already did a pretty good job on this very topic (though I disagree with some of his other conclusions). No use reinventing the wheel. Take a look at his dissertation:
http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt550.htm
Short summary: The temple has already been defiled and desolated during the Jewish War.
If your Kohen you wrote of had really been trained they would have learned that the priesthood had already finally and inexorably passed over from the Levitical Priesthood to the Melchizedekan (Christ!). Nothing any Jewish priest can do, going through inane deprecated rites in a make-believe Temple of God, will ever matter in the eyes of God - except his repentance and believing in His Messiah, just like we did.
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Wrong dates can lead to Bad Theology and when it leads one to deny a future and literal coming of Jesus then it leads to complete heresy.
Wow. That's a zingy sentence you got there, Rev.
I guess people living in your 1000-year Millennium will all be heretics too, seeing that they also will deny a still-future coming of Jesus.
beameup
Member
Wrong. Temple oblation and sacrifices continued until 70 AD. Even Paul took a vow and offered a sacrifice at the temple.
There is a lot more going on there than just Yom Kippor (like circumcision, offering for newborn, etc.). It will resume.
You are not even making sense. I wrote that they ceased in the Jewish War (which ended shortly after AD70). You said "Wrong" - and then agreed with me.
Forget it.
beameup
Member
The prophecy completion is 490 years and brings us to 40AD (70 shabuwa`).
So you are admitting now that there is a "gap".
Seventy weeks shabuwa are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9:24
So you are admitting now that there is a "gap".
Seventy weeks shabuwa are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9:24
A gap is when a time period is interrupted and then started again. This is not the case here.
There is more here I need to write but it is time for breakfast.
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