history of the doctrine of the rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Walls:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Amen, Sister Helen -- Preach it!

Does this comment mean you are for women preachers?</font>[/QUOTE]In that context,
"Amen" means that i agree with what Helen
said. "Preach it" means that i wish Helen
would continue to say the good things she
says to which i agree.

I'm just trying to do what the Bible
says to do:
Romans 14:19 (nKJV):

Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Tomorrow (Tuesday) night, I will post to discuss on Revelation more.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

PostTrib,
I have a few questions for you. I grew up believing the pre-tribulation scenario because (1)that's what I was taught in church and (2)I got a hold of some Hal Lindsey books as a youngster.

However, about 4-5 years ago, I slowly realized that such a view point was NOT the obvious teaching of scripture. Through "being a Berean" I changed my position to a "post-trib/pre-wrath" position. In reading your chronology I was wandering a couple of things:
(1) If the rapture doesn't take place until the 1335th day, how do you take Jesus's words: "No one knows the day or hour" or "for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him"? (Matt 24:36,44)
(2) How are the "days cut short(or shortened)" if we have to wait until the 1335th day?

I apologize if you have already answered these.
Thanks.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
I grew up believing the pre-tribulation scenario because (1)that's what I was taught in church and (2)I got a hold of some Hal Lindsey books as a youngster.

However, about 4-5 years ago, I slowly realized that such a view point was NOT the obvious teaching of scripture.

I then have a couple of questions
for you, Brother Doubting Thomas:

1. Are you Protestant pre-millinnial
or Catholic a-millinnial?

2. What do you feel is the meaning
of this scripture in light of your
testimony "I grew up believing the pre-tribulation scenario ... "?

2 Thessalonians 2:15 (nKJV):

Therefore, brethren,
stand fast and hold the traditions
which you were taught
whether by word or our epistle.

 

[H.R.B.]

Hey post triber guys,
What do you do with chapter 11 in Rev.? And could you please give me the verses in Rev. that you think are the rapture? If you get time. I want to see if you're on the same page as me.

This thread was very long and I didn't read every page so pardon me if you posted your answers to these questions already.

heidi

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Ed,

1. I don't consider myself "Protestant" or "Catholic"--I consider myself "Baptist" or "Evangelical". (I believe there have been "baptist"-type churches throughout church history long before the Reformation)

I consider myself PRE-Millenial.

2. The verse is Paul instructing the Thessalonians to hold fast to his teaching whether delivered orally or through his previous epistle.

 

[H.R.B.]

Hey Ed,
What's pre-mill, again? The terms just kill me.

heidi

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Doubting Thomas,

I am also baptist & evangelical. I am truly baptist - fundamental independent.

I know about 99% of baptists might not agree with me that I am amill. Nearly all baptists are not amill.

I was premill for a long time. Till 2 years ago, I become amill.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I am aware many of you will NOT agree with my interpreting on 1335 days of Dan. 12:11-12.

For a long time, I believe Daniel 12:11-12 will be fulfilled at the Second Advent.

Recently, I have been studying on it. I have been struggled on Dan. 12:11-12 for a long time. Many scholars have hard time on that. I know. I do have many books(commentaries) with me.

*deleting repetition to save band width*

Because my question was: Why there is 45 days apart between 1290 and 1335 days?

Dan. 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

1260 days find two times in the Bible.

1290 days find once in the Bible - Dan. 12:11.

I believe 1260 days must be relate with Great Tribulation under Antichrist - Rev. 11:2-3; & 12:6 too.

1290 days must be something mean to us. I do not think 1290 days relate with Tribulation.

I ask you, what is "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away"?

I believe it must be relate with Calvary.

This verse must be relate with Dan. 9:27- "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..." It is clearly relate with Calvary.

Jesus caused offerings, sacrifices to ceased at the cross. He said, "It is finished" - John 19:30, at the same, the veil of the temple tear down from top to bottom - Mark 15:37-38.

Jesus did desolate the temple - John 2:19.

Dan. 12:12 "blesseth is he that WAITETH, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

I ask you, why does a person wait for 1335 days?

What a person wait for? Second Advent?

For a long time, I believe a perosn wait for Second Advent.

Now, I realized, I believe a perosn wait for the Holy Spirit pour upon a person after Calvary.

Why?

Does it saying a person wait for Second Advent? It does not saying.

Why there is 45 days between 1290 and 1335 days?

I believe, it must be relate with Pentacost.

Pentacost is 50 days.

Lev. 23:15-16 telling us, a person count days start with the next day after passover, then, count 7 sabbaths, it is 50 days.

In Acts 1:3 tells us, Jesus walked for 40 days. Why not 30 days, why not 50 days? Jesus has his purpose reason why does he walked on earth for 40 days. I believe the purpose was, Christ had to fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament. Also, one important reason was, Christ have to prove disciples and the people, that he is real, and alive.

Many disciples include Thomas were doubting if Jesus is alive.

Then, after 40 days, Christ ascend up into heaven.

Then, Acts 2:1, the day of Pentacost came, the Holy Spirit poured upon them.

I believe Pentacost is 50 days - 50 days AFTER Calvary on the passover day.

Acts 3:16-17 fulfilled Joel 2:28-29.

Joel 2:28-29 prophesy must be relate with Pentacost Day.

I believe Dan. 12:12 - a person wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon a person to received blessed for to witness the gospel.

Some scholars saying 45 days is cleansing the building of the temple. It does not saying.

Marvin Rosenthal inteptets 1335 days, he believes 30 days is cleasning the temple, 45 days is judgment of the nations.

Does Daniel 12:11-12 saying according to Rosenthal's interpreting? Not clearly.

Even, scholars' interpreting of Daniel 12:11-12 are not clear.

You might not agree with me about interpreting Dan. 12:11-12. That is fine with me.

I realized, that many Christians are confusion between Christ and Antichrist in Daniel 9, 11, and 12 too. Which one is speaking?

Most Christians believe Daniel 9:27 is speaking on Antichrist. Actually, Daniel 9:27 is speaking on Christ.

I believe Daniel chapter 11 must be relate with Antichrist becaus eof persecution against saints.

I believe Daniel 12:11-12 must be relate with Calvary and Pentacost.

You might accuse me, that I am historist, and you think I seems sound like Preteist.

Didn't you realize there are about 60% to 70% of prophecies in the Old Testament already fulfilled at the first advent? There are about 30% of the prophecies are not yet fulfilled, it will be fulfilled at the Second Advent.

I am not Preterist.

I agree with historists, and futurists.

I am more clearly idealist.

Bible have lot of figuratives and symbols.

I never saying, I am deny literals of the scriptures. Yes I do believe in literal things in the scriptures. Not all are literal. Depend on what the scriptures are talking about.

Rev. 13:1 is the perfect example, it is not literal monster. It is symbol of the beast system.

Anyway, now back to Dan. 12:11-12. I believe it must be relate with Calvary, not Second Advent.

I realized, Christians are easy misunderstand on the scriptures of Daniel which one - Christ or Antichrist, it is talking about.

I believe Antichrist will be revealed to start Great Tribulaiton is the future event.

Depend on what the scriptures are speaking to which one - Christ or Antichrist. That why we have to be carefully when we interpreting it.

Why 45 days? Jesus walked 40 days. Pentacost is 50 days. Why only 5 days?

I believe, the timning of Christ's death and resurrection is lost forever thank to Catholic.

Many argue about the timing of Sunday and Sabbath.

I believe the timing of Christ's death and resurrection is lost forever thank to catholic, because of paganism.

I believe Dan. 12:11-12 must be relate with calvary and Pentacost, not Second Advent. You might not agree with me. That's fine.

Actually, I believe Dan. 12:11-12 is the most difficult to intepreting.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

[ January 29, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by H.R.B.:
Hey Ed,
What's pre-mill, again? The terms just kill me.

heidi

Howdy, Heidi!

The x-mill positions denote the Second
Advent (Second Coming) of Jesus relative
to the Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Christ.

pre-mill -- the Second Advent is before the MK
post-mill -- the Second Advent is after the MK
a-mill -- the MK is spiritual,
not a physical age; the MK is among us as we
speak, in a spiritual sense

BTW, Sister Heidi, page 8 here is a hoot

On page 8 is a discussion of two different
views of post-trib.

[ January 29, 2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

[H.R.B.]

Thanks Ed,
You guys have almost a book started here!
heidi

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Ed,

1. I don't consider myself "Protestant" or "Catholic"--I consider myself "Baptist" or "Evangelical". (I believe there have been "baptist"-type churches throughout church history long before the Reformation)

I consider myself PRE-Millenial.

2. The verse is Paul instructing the Thessalonians to hold fast to his teaching whether delivered orally or through his previous epistle.

Thank you.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
...how do you take Jesus's words: "No one knows the day or hour"...

Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
...How are the "days cut short...

I believe Matthew 24:22 is saying if we had to wait much longer than 1,335 days we wouldn't survive.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[archie]

MOST CHRISTIAN BOOK STORES CARRY THE SECOND COMING. Comparing scripture with scripture one must make their own decision. I BELIEVE JESUS WILL COME BEFORE THE TRIBULATION FOR HIS CHURCH JUST MY THOUGHT.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by archie:
Comparing scripture with scripture one must make their own decision. I BELIEVE JESUS WILL COME BEFORE THE TRIBULATION FOR HIS CHURCH JUST MY THOUGHT.

Amen, Brother Archie -- Preach it!

 

[swordsman]

Serious Question I am not setting anyone up:

In the Word of God have the righteous ever gone THROUGH judgement with the un-righteous?

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by swordsman:
Serious Question I am not setting anyone up:

In the Word of God have the righteous ever gone THROUGH judgement with the un-righteous?

Yes. The Israelites didn't leave Egypt until after the plagues. Noah didn't leave before the rains fell, he was just prepared. Lot and his daughters left *the same day* as the final destruction of Sodom. In Matt 24, it describes believers during the trib, even if you are pretrib. In Rev, it describes believers during the trib, even if you are pretrib. Actually, I can't find any instances of the righteous being totally removed a significant time beforehand. They are all either protected and/or removed at the last day right before total destruction.

 

[David A Bayliss]

This answer favors both sides!

Yep; the righteous went through it with the Egyptians.

More specifically the JEWS went through it with the Egyptians.

Incidentally; there are some interesting parallels between the 10 plagues and the plagues of Rev 16. There are a couple of tables that illustrate this on my website :

http://www.dabhand.org/Ten%20Plagues.htm

However consider Sodom: Lot was pulled out 'just in time'. But the people of promise (Abraham et al) were living somewhere else ...

HTH

DAB

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by swordsman:
Serious Question I am not setting anyone up:

In the Word of God have the righteous ever gone THROUGH judgement with the un-righteous?

Yes. The Israelites didn't leave Egypt until after the plagues. Noah didn't leave before the rains fell, he was just prepared. Lot and his daughters left *the same day* as the final destruction of Sodom. In Matt 24, it describes believers during the trib, even if you are pretrib. In Rev, it describes believers during the trib, even if you are pretrib. Actually, I can't find any instances of the righteous being totally removed a significant time beforehand. They are all either protected and/or removed at the last day right before total destruction.</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by David A Bayliss:

However consider Sodom: Lot was pulled out 'just in time'. But the people of promise (Abraham et al) were living somewhere else ...

As far as I know, Abraham was never living in Sodom in the first place, so he would not need to be removed from it, neither 7 years earlier nor 'just in time'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed: " ... Doubting Thomas:
1. Are you Protestant pre-millinnial
or Catholic a-millinnial?"

Doubting Thomas: " I consider
myself Pre-millenial."

I find that the most reasonable
rational for posttrib.
The "Protestant, Catholic" part of
the question was a side issue.
IMHO the early church was neither
pretrib nor posttrib
but were very pre-millennial...
About the time in 325AD when the RCC got in
bed with the Roman Empire, they
began to rationalize the a-mill position.
After that for 1260 years the a-mills
reigned. IT was the
protestant
movement of the 16th
century that restored the
pre-millinnial position.