history of the doctrine of the rapture

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Ed: " ... Doubting Thomas:
1. Are you Protestant pre-millinnial
or Catholic a-millinnial?"

Doubting Thomas: " I consider
myself Pre-millenial."

I find that the most reasonable
rational for posttrib.
The "Protestant, Catholic" part of
the question was a side issue.
IMHO the early church was neither
pretrib nor posttrib
but were very pre-millennial...
About the time in 325AD when the RCC got in
bed with the Roman Empire, they
began to rationalize the a-mill position.
After that for 1260 years the a-mills
reigned. IT was the
protestant
movement of the 16th
century that restored the
pre-millinnial position.

Ed,
I agree with you regarding the historical development of Amillenial position. However, although one can't necessarily label the ECFs as pre-trib or post-trib, I've read many quotes from them expecting to face the AntiChrist BEFORE Christ comes back, FWIW. However, I, like you, am amazed how people try to rationalize away the literal 1000 year reign of Christ. The first 69 "weeks" of Daniel were literally fulfilled so there is no reason to suggest that the 70th week WON'T be a literal seven years as well. And Revelation which describes this week (at least the second HALF of it) in detail (42 months, 1260 days etc), if we're consistent, we'd take the Millenium as a literal 1000 year period.
Peace.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by archie:
...I BELIEVE JESUS WILL COME BEFORE THE TRIBULATION FOR HIS CHURCH...

Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by swordsman:
...have the righteous ever gone THROUGH judgement with the un-righteous?...

Does Revelation say the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Could God's judgment not be come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), none of which are directed at us Christians?

Could we Christians go through the war, famine, plague, persecution, natural disaster, and death of the tribulation just as we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us?

Originally posted by swordsman:
...have the righteous ever gone THROUGH judgement with the un-righteous?...

"Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" (Genesis 18:23).

In the pre-trib view, will God "destroy" us Christians who will be in the tribulation who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and who are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13)?

But when will this verse be fulfilled?

"I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked" (Ezekiel 21:4).

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by David A Bayliss:
...Lot was pulled out 'just in time'...

Note that just as God didn't have to rapture Lot (or Noah) into heaven to keep him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

Lot was greatly affected by the judgment on Sodom: he had to flee immediately and leave behind everything he owned; he even lost his wife; and he went to go live in a cave (Genesis 19:30).

And Noah was commanded to make extensive preparations on the earth in order to avoid God's wrath; he had to build a gigantic ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 4 1/2 stories high (Genesis 6:15), and he had to store up enough food to keep himself, 7 others in his family (Genesis 7:7), and every kind of animal alive in the ark (Genesis 6:19) for the 12 months and 10 days they would all remain in the ark (Genesis 7:11, 8:13-17) and until they could grow more food on the destroyed earth after the flood.

I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians, so that our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Postrib: "Doesn't Jesus say that
he will come to gather us
together "immediately after the
tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31) ... ?

No. Jesus says "immediately after the
tribualtion" He will appear and "all
the tribes of the earth will morn"
(Matthew 24:29-30). At the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection those looking for
Jesus to come get them and take them
to heaven will NOT morn.
In fact, we will be excited in our expectation
of Him.

Matthew 24:31 (our gathering) is seperated
from Matthew 24:29-30 ("immediately after the
tribualtion") by the polysyndeton "and" starting
Matthew 24:31. Please don't confuse
the polysyndeton "and"s and the connective "and"s
in Matthew 34, though i'll admit they
both look the same at first glance.
I believe the disciples asked
three questions in Matthew 24:3.
I believe Jesus answered them all in the
order asked, not the order in which they
will take place. The question the
disciples asked about the end of the
age (end of the world in the KJV)
Jesus answered in Matthew 24:31-44.
The questions the disciples asked about
the Second Coming, Jesus answered
in Matthew 24:21-30.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Postrib: "Doesn't ... Paul say that Jesus' coming
to gather us together must
"destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)??

No. Paul says that Jesus' coming
to destroy the Antichrist will destroy
the Antichrist. Jesus' coming to gather us together
must gather us together when we fall away
(v. 3) from this earth before the
Tribulation period.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Postrib: "Doesn't ... Paul say that Jesus' coming
to gather us together must
"destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)??

No. Paul says that Jesus' coming
to destroy the Antichrist will destroy
the Antichrist. Jesus' coming to gather us together
must gather us together when we fall away
(v. 3) from this earth before the
Tribulation period.

Ed, I think it is quite a stretch to assume that "departure"(or "falling away") is somehow referring to the Rapture and not the Apostasy (departure) from the FAITH.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

"Falling away" of 2 Thess 2:3 translated from Greek word - Textus Receptus means 'apostasia'. It defines, depart from the faith, depart from the truth.

Same with 2 Tim. 3:1-7 telling us, in the last days, many will turn away from the faith, and truth. Also, in 2 Tim. 4:3-4 telling us, in the last days, we will see apostasy, many will turn away from truth and faith.

We already see aposatasy everything right now since Early Church. These are continuing increasing worst all the way till Christ comes.

Apostle Paul tells us, two things must come first before the gathering together - apostasy and the revealed of Antixhrist - 2 Thess 2:3.

Paul tells us, day(day of Christ/gathering together) shall not come till we will see apostasy first and revealed of Antichrist - 2 Thess 2:3.

Greek word of 2 Thess 2:3 - 'falling away' never support the idea meaning of rapture.

Patire is caught UP, not down.

falling away is something that depart from that place.

I have an illustration.

In the autumn time, there is a windy day. The leaves are falling away from the trees, the leaveing are not ascend up in the sky all the way up. The leaves are continuing descending all the way to the ground.

That is what falling away defines.

2 Thess 2:1-3 do not support pretrib teaching. Apostle Paul telling us, that day of Christ will not come till we will see apostasy first, and the revealed of Antichrist.

Church will face Antichrist first, and we will persecuted under Antichrist - Rev. 13:7.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Tim]

Sorry I got in on this discussion late, but I do think the late historical developement of dispensational premillenialism is very significant. It's modern-day popularity is primarily due it's early association with fundamentalists in opposition to modernists (liberals) of the 1920's.

Despite it's overwhelming support today, I believe the system itself has many serious weaknesses and theological inconsistencies. Unfortunely, it's not kosher to examine it critically, lest you become suspected of being on the slippery slope to liberalism.

Been there, done that. Got the scars to prove it.

Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib says:
"Greek word of 2 Thess 2:3 - 'falling away' never support the idea meaning of rapture."

Actually the seven English Bible versions
prior to the Anglican's KJV had
the Greek term translated with some
form of "departure". These versions
span two centuries in which your use
of "never" is false.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
...those looking for Jesus to come get them and take them to heaven will NOT morn...

Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

While Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 say that at Jesus' coming "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn," Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the gathering together of us believers when Jesus comes "in his glory" -- and surely then we will not be mourning like the unbelievers will be, for "when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:13).

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
...I believe the disciples asked
three questions in Matthew 24:3...

Note that the same questions are asked in Matthew 24:3, Mark 13:4, and Luke 21:7.

Matthew 24:3
1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Mark 13:4
1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

Luke 21:7
1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

Note that there are only two questions asked in all three accounts, and Jesus gives the same "No man knows the day" and "Watch therefore" answer in Mark 13:32-37 that he gives in Matthew 24:36-44. So we see that the Olivet discourse contains neither a "3rd question" nor a "3rd answer."

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
...The question the
disciples asked about the end of the
age (end of the world in the KJV)
Jesus answered in Matthew 24:31-44...

Note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
...Paul says that Jesus' coming
to destroy the Antichrist will destroy
the Antichrist. Jesus' coming to gather us together
must gather us together when we fall away
(v. 3) from this earth before the
Tribulation period...

Note that the Greek word for "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is apostasia; its Greek definition is "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture. We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Elder Ed:
Actually the seven English Bible versions
prior to the Anglican's KJV had
the Greek term translated with some
form of "departure"...

Note that apostasy is a departure, from one's faith.

"The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1); "Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:10-12); compare "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him" (John 6:66).