Hoax or Reality

Mr. Calvin would like to get his 2 cents in:

Calvin, Institutes, Book III, Chapter XXI, Section 5.
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death."

 

What is your full definition of "OPEN THEISM"?

By the way, I ask for "YOUR" definition, not someone else's definition. </font>[/QUOTE]Open Theism - The theological idea that God does not know and cannot know every decision/choice every member of a free human race is going to make. If He did know in advance then the Open Theist argues that man is not really free at all but a mere pawn in a cruel celestial drama.

If God does not and cannot know the choices that are going to be made he is not active in history but reactive. If God is not active but reactive then He is not really in control and man is the captain of his own soul and master of his own destiny.

If in the Future mankind destroys the earth through Nuclear War or worse, the Open Theist's God would have to proclaim, "I knew something like this was going to happen but I didn't know when and I didn't know how."

 

You left out the Holy Spirit, just can't let him be part of the equation can ya? This would prevent men from entering by their celebrated will...wouldn't it?

Bro. Dallas

 

The original point was that Calvinism is a hoax.

That Jesus Christ who has been given all power and authority can not possibly know who the elect are.

It is the seed - root of Open Theism that is beginning to crop up in the Arminian side of this never-ending debate. </font>[/QUOTE]No, the original question / thought is that in light of Jesus' command to go into all the world making disciples, baptising them in the three persons of God, that Jesus meant, "Only the elect" instead of leaving it, as He intended, to ALL the "Whosoever believeths". Calvinism limits God's command to "only the elect" whereas non Calvinists, do not so limit God the Son's command.

Therefore the Hoax would be that If Jesus meant "only the elect", why did he word his command to include "the world". Because if, as Calvinism says, that the elect will be saved regardless, there is no need to go into all the world. Thus, Jesus command is a hoax that gives false hope to any non elect who hear the gospel. Promising one thing, delivering quite another, is what hoaxes are all about. </font>[/QUOTE]yelsew, it is not the purpose of man to provide eternal salvation. The purpose of preaching the Gospel is to proclaim what has been done by the Grace of God and let the effect fall where it does. IMHO, I believe that to do otherwise is an attempt of men to 'identify' for God who the elect all. I believe this then politicizes the worship of God.

Under no circumstances, even were no man ever eternally saved is any portion of the word of God a hoax or should it ever be considered as such simply because many people seem to not believe it.

This is on the verge of playing God...imho.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew,

I never thought you were an Open Theist.

However, your ship and ticket theory has a major flaw. Your Salvation Ship Captain is more arbitrary than the Calvinist's God because he depends on weak and sinful men to spread the news that a ship even exists and then he depends on the will of sinful man to respond to that news.

Let me illustrate:

There may be a clerk at the grocery where you shop who has never heard the Gospel.

Because you didn't feel like sharing today about Jesus she still doesn't know there's a Savior.

It gets worse. She's killed in a traffic accident this evening without ever hearing about Jesus.

You could have told her but you didn't feel like it. She goes out of this life to her hopeless fate, not because God didn't choose her because it's not his will than any should perish, but because you didn't give her the opportunity.

That's about the most unfair and most arbitrary Salvation Plan I've ever heard.

I'd much rather believe in a plan where the Captain (Jesus) says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37 NIV)

That's the Ship I want to Sail on.

As far as the Great Commission goes.....

(Mat 28:19 KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Go Everywhere, to all corners of the Earth, to Every Nation on Earth. Baptize those who believe.

Jesus knew who would believe. All that the Father would give Him would. Who are those that the Father would give Him - The Elect. Jesus could look at a man and read his heart inside and out. But he knew his disciples couldn't and we still can't today. The Great Commission means we preach the Gospel to all the people of the Earth. The Elect will choose to believe. The Non-elect will choose to remain in their sins.

 

I think that is well stated Hardsheller.

One of my awakening moments to this was after delivering a sermon an elderly church member admonished me for not giving an altar call and failing to give anyone an opportunity to believe in Jesus.

This is when I first realized that I did not want to put myself between anyone and Jesus and instead of altar calls I now try to explain to people [who have been conditioned to hear altar calls] they have no need for me to open any altar to them, God has opened the altar and they can access it where ever they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.

IMHO, the drawing of the Holy Spirit is much more needful than my opening an altar as part of my show.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

How is God going to justly make this determination? He has to have a cut-off point somewhere and still this scenario creates the idea of injustice, and arbitrary action against the will of man.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yelsew,

All men when confronted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ will scoff, laugh, and disbelieve - Unless there is a Power in the Witness or in the Gospel that is presented.

(Acts 4:33 KJV) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

(1 Cor 1:18 KJV) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

(1 Cor 2:4 KJV) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

(1 Th 1:5 KJV) For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

I would never have believed the Gospel and You would have never believed the Gospel unless there had been a supernatural element present convincing both you and me that it was true.

We do not believe because we simply have the ability to believe.

We believe because we have been overwhelmed by the presence and the reality of the one True God.

We have an "A-HA! moment" that is not of our own understanding or our own wisdom. It is totally of God and it changes us forever.

We have faith in God at that moment because we cannot refuse the evidence and the substance of that experience.

Those sitting around us may scoff and even laugh at our "stupidity" and our belief in foolish fables, but we know something significant and lifechanging has happened.

It's a God Thing - Not a Man Thing!

 

Yelsew,

you only desire to see "the elect" being called today. but did you ever think of who this group is that is being called and to ATTEMPT to live by faith.

some are actually the sons of God
some will become reprobate by not living by faith
some will remain in the baby/child stage

there are three groups that comprise those who are called of God and are sitting in the pews of churches.

God is preparing the sons of God (overcomers) to welcome all of creation to be reconciled back to God. "christians" dont think too deep on these things.

this is the time when God the father is creating Jesus "body" comprised of ONLY overcomers.

(the elect, who can declared that Jesus is their Lord)

[ October 03, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Hardsheller and Me2 let me Amen what you both have said.

George Carlin said: 'Religion has convinced some people that there is actually a little man living up in the sky'.

Many Christians don't think any deeper than this.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Nothing in any of the last posts line up with Arminianism.

Bro. Dallas