Holy Communion - Wine or Grape Juice?

[Adonia]

In another thread, someone seemed to imply that grape juice was used during the Last Supper and thus that is what should be used now. In every account about the Last Supper I have ever read in the Scriptures, Jesus uses wine, not grape juice. Wine is wine, and grape juice is grape juice, no? So come on my non-orthodox apologists, here's your chance to come up with the proof (if you can find it) that grape juice is the element that should be used during Holy Communion.

Chapter and verse please. And, if you have any other historic or traditional evidence from throughout the ages, please include those references.

 

[BobRyan]

In another thread, someone seemed to imply that grape juice was used during the last supper and thus that is what should be used now. In every account about the Last Supper I have ever read in the Scriptures, Jesus uses wine, not grape juice

There is no word in the Bible called "grape juice".

The word used is "beverage" and context determine if it is alcoholic or not.
The reason the Passover supper that we call "the Lord's Supper" is not wine (one of the many reasons) is that Passover is considered the first day of the feast of unleavened bread and no yeast of any kind was allowed -- not even yeast used in making wine.

"The role of yeast in winemaking is the most important element that distinguishes wine from grape juice. In the absence of oxygen, yeast converts the sugars of wine grapes into alcohol"

 

[TCassidy]

Chapter and verse please.

The only time we see "grape juice" in the New Testament is Act 2:13 Others, mocking, said, “They are filled with new wine.”

"New wine" is γλευκους (gleukous, from which we get the English "glucose" a simple sugar) in Greek. But even that could still be understood to mean "sweet wine."

Personally I don't care which is used, alcoholic wine or non-alcoholic grape juice. It is not the element that is important. It is what the element represents that is important, the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[utilyan]

There is no word in the Bible called "grape juice".

The word used is "beverage" and context determine if it is alcoholic or not.
The reason the Passover supper that we call "the Lord's Supper" is not wine (one of the many reasons) is that Passover is considered the first day of the feast of unleavened bread and no yeast of any kind was allowed -- not even yeast used in making wine.

"The role of yeast in winemaking is the most important element that distinguishes wine from grape juice. In the absence of oxygen, yeast converts the sugars of wine grapes into alcohol"

Well Bob Suppose you and I go have drink of grape juice.

Would you like fresh grape juice from these fresh grapes right here? Or would you like some this OLD grape juice I let sit outside for a week?


Things that only people who drink alcohol can understand:

Luke
39“And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, ‘The old is good enough.’”


Wine drinkers know the older the wine, the better. Are you going to convince me OLD GRAPE JUICE taste better then FRESH Grape juice?



John 2

10and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”

This guy is COMPLAINING for using the GOOD STUFF last.

When you drink liquor or beer, you start with the GOOD STUFF FIRST , after your drunk your not gonna care what they put in it. you can have a drink with a cigarette sticking out of it and your not going to know the difference.....your drunk.

 

[BobRyan]

Well Bob Suppose you and I go have drink of grape juice.

Would you like fresh grape juice from these fresh grapes right here? Or would you like some this OLD grape juice I let sit outside for a week?

I am going with "Fresh".

Things that only people who drink alcohol can understand:

Not how it works. Letting juice sit out for a week or two only gets you rotten juice. Wine on the other hand is science and art and requires a process and the use of yeast to make it something other than foul swill.

The leaven of wine yeast was not allowed on Passover because it is considered the first day of the feast of unleavened bread when no leaven of any kind was allowed to be present in the entire house -- much less the food and drink.

 

[One Baptism]

In another thread, someone seemed to imply that grape juice was used during the Last Supper and thus that is what should be used now. In every account about the Last Supper I have ever read in the Scriptures, Jesus uses wine, not grape juice. Wine is wine, and grape juice is grape juice, no? So come on my non-orthodox apologists, here's your chance to come up with the proof (if you can find it) that grape juice is the element that should be used during Holy Communion.

Chapter and verse please. And, if you have any other historic or traditional evidence from throughout the ages, please include those references.

More than likely, myself, made such a statement, however, even if another, by the grace of God, I can answer your inquiry, only so long as it is a serious inquiry, wherein you actually desire to know the truth of the matter, and not merely hold to what you already believe, if the evidence is clear and compelling.

I have scriptural [KJB] and merely historical evidences.

Therefore, will you take my reply [ies] seriously? What I mean to ask is, will you change position and reform, repent if the Truth is clear from scripture [KJB], or will you hold to Romanism, even if it is to be found in contradiction to the evidence?

I have approximately 56 pages, Times New Roman font size 9 that addresses every single passage in scripture [KJB] on the subject. I have personally looked at these references, and the study is mine own, along with other references to other studies done long before me from varied persons.

I also have the Roman Catholic definitions of their own "wine" for their 'mass' [I used to be in the Roman position, having been Roman Catholic for 30 years]

If you are serious about Truth I will participate here, but if not, and only interested in tradition, I will continue my time elsewhere. My conversation will only be with you.

 

[utilyan]

I am going with "Fresh".



Not how it works. Letting juice sit out for a week or two only gets you rotten juice. Wine on the other hand is science and art and requires a process and the use of yeast to make it something other than foul swill.

The leaven of wine yeast was not allowed on Passover because it is considered the first day of the feast of unleavened bread when no leaven of any kind was allowed to be present in the entire house -- much less the food and drink.

Wow did you just mentally delete what I wrote on the post? I can tell when you are on the ropes.


ARE You sure you want the fresh Juice?

Luke 5

39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.’ ”

Because Jesus Christ says OLD GRAPE JUICE is better then FRESH GRAPE JUICE.

Are you sure you don't want some of this better OLD GRAPE JUICE then FRESHLY SQUEEZED JUICE?

 

[BobRyan]

Wow did you just mentally delete what I wrote on the post?

ARE You sure you want the fresh Juice?

Luke 5
39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.’ ”

IF the "old wine" is properly fermented with yeast - going through the art-and-science to take the "fine wine" path rather than the "rotten juice" path then the alcoholic prefers it ..

But the subject is the Passover meal of Christ - and for Passover you are at the first day of the "feast of unleavened bread" - where yeast is not only not allowed in food... it is not allowed "in the house". Did you just mentally delete the entire topic and context??

BTW

By Steve Heimoff on August 21st, 2014
in: Wine Education, Beginner
I recently read a post in the online Financial Times (the British publication) by a well-known wine writer. He wrote: “Newcomers to wine often describe their first impressions of its taste as ‘vinegary’ and ‘sour’. My younger brother and I agreed, having tentatively sipped champagne in our early teens, that its taste was similar to that left in our mouths after we’d vomited.”

Hence the dislike of the very taste of it - that I experience and that most people I know regard it - or will say that they initially found the taste to be bad until they drank so much and so often that they "got used to it"

 

[HankD]

Fruit juice need not have yeast added to it in order to get wine or vinegar.

Yeast molecules are both in the air and in the fruit skin itself.
So of course are bacteria.

One need not add yeast to fruit juice (e.g. cider) to start fermentation.

 

[BobRyan]

Fruit juice need not have yeast added to it in order to get wine or vinegar.

Yeast molecules are both in the air and in the fruit skin itself.
So of course are bacteria.

One need not add yeast to fruit juice (e.g. cider) to start fermentation.

Indeed the rotting affect will always occur - the question is the art-and-science of a controlled process to make it tasty or the uncontrolled natural decay process that makes it simply putrid.

""The role of yeast in winemaking is the most important element that distinguishes wine from grape juice. In the absence of oxygen, yeast converts the sugars of wine grapes into alcohol""

=================================

Fermentation Management Practices
Introduction

The goal of fermentation management is to develop a robust population of microorganisms that will complete the fermentation and resist any biotic or abiotic stress that may occur along the way in addition to the production of positive aromatic characters contributing to complexity. Grape juice is rich in nutrients, particularly in sugars from which energy will be derived. The end products of sugar catabolism, aldehydes and alcohols, are inhibitory to growth so the cell must be able to successfully adapt both growth and continued metabolism to the presence of these biological stressors. Sufficient macronutrients (N, S, P) and micronutrients (vitamins, minerals and growth factors) must be present to support cell growth and proliferation. Nutrient supplementation can be used to augment the grape content. Excessive use of nutrients may detract from wine quality by preventing the natural competition that keeps certain populations in check and may block production of desired aroma compounds derived from catabolism of less preferred nutritional sources. Fermentation management must also consider establishing conditions that will allow completion of the fermentation, conversion of all available sugar to either biomass, ethanol or carbon dioxide. Specific nutrients and growth conditions are needed for optimal ethanol and aldehyde tolerance and these condition should be established during fermentation to prevent fermentation arrest.

Successful fermentation management strategies also consider the impacts of temperature, oxygen, pH and mixing on microbial growth and metabolism. If bioloads of non-Saccharomyces organisms are high, then the use of antimicrobial agents to assure rapid domination of the fermentation may be optimal. Inoculation with specific cultures can be used to assure metabolically hearty strains are present.

Inoculation Practices

 

[utilyan]

IF the "old wine" is properly fermented with yeast - going through the art-and-science to take the "fine wine" path rather than the "rotten juice" path then the alcoholic prefers it ..

But the subject is the Passover meal of Christ - and for Passover you are at the first day of the "feast of unleavened bread" - where yeast is not only not allowed in food... it is not allowed "in the house". Did you just mentally delete the entire topic and context??

BTW


Hence the dislike of the very taste of it - that I experience and that most people I know regard it - or will say that they initially found the taste to be bad until they drank so much and so often that they "got used to it"

Why does Jesus say OLD wine is better?

Man if Jesus knows how to roll a joint there is a good chance he smokes weed.

=============

Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast? Isn't yeast forbidden on Passover?

Answer:

Of the hundreds of species of yeast, the Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of the following five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered chametz (leavened food).

Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast?




Try a kosher Jewish wine find out how it tastes.

 

[BobRyan]

Why does Jesus say OLD wine is better?

Hint - Jesus did not say "old wine is better for passover" nor did He say "no yeast except for wine on Passover"


Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast? Isn't yeast forbidden on Passover?

Answer:

It is not permitted -- see the Bible

 

[Alcott]

Most wines advertised, labeled, and sold as "Kosher for Passover" are not nonalcoholic.

 

[utilyan]

Hint - Jesus did not say "old wine is better for passover" nor did He say "no yeast except for wine on Passover"


Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast? Isn't yeast forbidden on Passover?

Answer:

It is not permitted -- see the Bible

Not all you just can't use wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye.

 

[Rob_BW]

I believe passover wines are labeled seder.

 

[BobRyan]

Not all you just can't use wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye.

no leaven "in the house" (how many ways to say that)

Ex 12:15
15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses;

 

[HankD]

no leaven "in the house" (how many ways to say that)

Ex 12:15
15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses;

There are yeast cells in the skin of the grapes it's unavoidable.

There are yeast molecules in the air as well.

 

[BobRyan]

There are yeast cells in the skin of the grapes it's unavoidable.

There are yeast molecules in the air as well.

Well - molecules in the air or not - the deliberate intent to insert wine yeast and to artfully create a yeast based beverage was not consistent with searching the entire house for leaven and making sure you had none in the entire house prior to the feast of unleavened bread.

 

[Adonia]

The leaven of wine yeast was not allowed on Passover because it is considered the first day of the feast of unleavened bread when no leaven of any kind was allowed to be present in the entire house -- much less the food and drink.

Bob, wine is wine and it contains alcohol, it is a fermented beverage - that is the definition of what wine is. I was just on a Jewish website called Judaism 101 which explains the significance of drinking the four cups of wine (with a fifth cup set aside for Elijah). Wine Bob, not grape juice (unfermented grapes).

The Passover Seder talks about eating unleavened bread to commemorate the escape from Egypt, it says nothing about having to drink unleavened wine (see Judaism 101). But lets say that they had to drink "unleavened" wine, the fact is grapes left by themselves to stew in their own juices will ferment, thus producing what we know as "wine". You call it "rotting", but the process is known as fermentation. It might be bad tasting and not the best ever produced but it is wine nonetheless, probably the same stuff that Jesus drank many times during His sojourn here on earth.

 

[Adonia]

More than likely, myself, made such a statement, however, even if another, by the grace of God, I can answer your inquiry, only so long as it is a serious inquiry, wherein you actually desire to know the truth of the matter, and not merely hold to what you already believe, if the evidence is clear and compelling.

In this case it was not you but someone else.

Therefore, will you take my reply [ies] seriously? What I mean to ask is, will you change position and reform, repent if the Truth is clear from scripture [KJB], or will you hold to Romanism, even if it is to be found in contradiction to the evidence?

I am the poster and you are the responder and it is not your place to request that I accept your pre-conditions for dialogue. You are free to respond with the "facts" that you claim to have and then wait for my response. You are also free to not respond - it's your choice.

I have approximately 56 pages, Times New Roman font size 9 that addresses every single passage in scripture [KJB] on the subject. I have personally looked at these references, and the study is mine own, along with other references to other studies done long before me from varied persons.

I do not subscribe to the KJB as that is an incomplete version of the Holy Scriptures and in a language that has seen better days. The fact that you also mention that "the study is mine own" further casts doubt on the veracity of your biblical conclusions. I look to those with teaching authority from God and I must be blunt, you are not among them.

I simply depend on the teachings of God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which has the amalgamation of over 2000 years of theological thought that has been passed down to us by hundreds if not thousands of learned clergy and other theologians. Not one person, but an institution formed on this earth for that very purpose - the Church!