Holy Hip-Hop?

[citizenofheaven]

Originally posted by poncho:
...hip-hop has as much in common with gospel music as booty and bling have with the spirit.

Christian Rock, Christian Rap, Christian metal...

Since we're at it, let's have some Christian beer, Christian Fornication, Christian drugs, Christian smoking, Christian crossdressing, Christian cussing, Christian stealing, Christian Lieing and some Christian murder to wash down all the so-called "Christian Music" we're listening to.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by citizenofheaven:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by poncho:
...hip-hop has as much in common with gospel music as booty and bling have with the spirit.

Christian Rock, Christian Rap, Christian metal...

Since we're at it, let's have some Christian beer, Christian Fornication, Christian drugs, Christian smoking, Christian crossdressing, Christian cussing, Christian stealing, Christian Lieing and some Christian murder to wash down all the so-called "Christian Music" we're listening to. </font>[/QUOTE]You're right. Drums and guitars are instruments of the devil himself!

 

[Eric B]

beer, Fornication, drugs, smoking, crossdressing, cussing, stealing, Lying and murder are all condemned in scripture, some directly in the commamnents, others indirectly (smoking destroys the body, drugs=pharmakia-"sorcery", etc).
How does shifting a beat accent and adding more syncopation, (which is basically what defines those styles; and add talking in rhyme rather than singing for rap) fall into or equal these other categories?

No one has ever been able to give a solid answer. It's always a shifting cycle of "that's what we associate it with"/what the world uses it for", "our godly past society didn't use it", "science studies say it's bad", etc. Sorry, but those are not enough to make such correlations.

 

[webdog]

Eric, I agree with everything on your list but the beer, it was actually encouraged to be bought if desired after the tithe was paid, but that's anoth topic...

All of these things we call "worldly" because we don't like or they have been legalistically beat into our head that they are sin. What about things we do like? Like "worldly cars", "worldly sports", "worldly shopping", "worldly ice cream", and "worldly McDonald's". These are all things associated and enjoyed by the "world", do we not associate ourselves as christians with these, too? When the Bible says be IN the world and not OF it, it doesn't mean we can't enjoy things which aren't sinful, music included. We are not to act like the world.

 

[Grimlock Prime]

I love Cross Movement. GRITS. KJ-52. Great music glorifing the Lord. I'm not normally into rap/hip hop, but I like those guys a lot.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
beer, Fornication, drugs, smoking, crossdressing, cussing, stealing, Lying and murder are all condemned in scripture, some directly in the commamnents, others indirectly (smoking destroys the body, drugs=pharmakia-"sorcery", etc).
How does shifting a beat accent and adding more syncopation, (which is basically what defines those styles; and add talking in rhyme rather than singing for rap) fall into or equal these other categories?

No one has ever been able to give a solid answer.

I have given a solid answer many times, proven by the direction the discussion inevitably takes when I give the answer. The style of music is wrong because of it's appeal. Then the discussion goes into the nature of good and evil, the spirit and the flesh, and even to salvation itself.

Moral arguments are never really arguments about the act itself (and music is an act). They're arguments about God and one's knowledge thereof.

 

[Eric B]

That was never a solid answer, but simply going around the old cycle, as your statement on the "direction" here perfectly illustrates: you try the "association" argument, and when the others dispute you on that, then you try the "nature of good and evil"/"flesh/spirit", and when that doesn't work, then it's an argument about God. From there, we start over, basing this on the "association". While this may supply an appearance of an endless stream of answers, so you never appear finally refuted, still these arguments do not prove one another. Each of the three spokes on this wheel by themselves are unproven (extrabiblical), and conveniently shifting to the next one does not prove anything.

 

[Grimlock Prime]

Originally posted by Aaron:
The style of music is wrong because of it's appeal.

What does that mean? What is it's appeal? Youth? Blacks? People who prefer modern music to Lawrence Welk? What is it about the 'appeal' of hip hop or rap that makes that style of music incompatable with praising the Lord?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
That was never a solid answer, but simply going around the old cycle, as your statement on the "direction" here perfectly illustrates: you try the "association" argument, and when the others dispute you on that, then you try the "nature of good and evil"/"flesh/spirit", and when that doesn't work, then it's an argument about God. From there, we start over, basing this on the "association". While this may supply an appearance of an endless stream of answers, so you never appear finally refuted, still these arguments do not prove one another. Each of the three spokes on this wheel by themselves are unproven (extrabiblical), and conveniently shifting to the next one does not prove anything.

Eric, you are the one with the revolving arguments. It's actually your responses that go in circles. The arguments about the nature of good and evil, flesh and spirit, God, etc. all stand on their own merits and are eminently relavent to the music issue. They work, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Grimlock Prime:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
The style of music is wrong because of it's appeal.

What does that mean? What is it's appeal? Youth? Blacks? People who prefer modern music to Lawrence Welk? What is it about the 'appeal' of hip hop or rap that makes that style of music incompatable with praising the Lord? </font>[/QUOTE]Almost all who participate in this thread will acknowledge that something like Thrash Metal is wholly incompatible with the character and demeanor God desires for Christian worship. Exactly what is the appeal of Thrash Metal? Basically it satisfies (for now) one's lust for excess and riot.

The only reason anyone listens to music is because of how it makes them feel, and that's the appeal of music. It's an indisputable Scriptural principle, that the spirit lusts against the flesh, and the flesh against the spirit. Therefore, the music which engenders feelings compatible with spirituality is good music, and music which engenders feelings pleasing to the flesh is bad.

No one here really argues with that. The arguments inevitably go to the root of the issue, which is, how do you tell the difference?

 

[Eric B]

And that's what you fail to have proven. The whole argument is based purely on overgeneralization (based on some claims of other people, regardless of the fact that all people are different).
And now, you try to throw the charge of a revolving argument back on me?

We're the ones on the defensive here, you are the one making claims, and we answer them, and then the criteria changes, from "flesh and spirit", to "natural effects" (which are supposed to explain flesh and spirit, but don't consistently), and then simply to "associations" (which supposedly proves what appeales to the flesh and spirit, but also, dosn;t consistently), and back around.

Therefore, the music which engenders feelings compatible with spirituality is good music, and music which engenders feelings pleasing to the flesh is bad.

This is basically answered here:
http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html#communication

 

[Grimlock Prime]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grimlock Prime:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
The style of music is wrong because of it's appeal.

What does that mean? What is it's appeal? Youth? Blacks? People who prefer modern music to Lawrence Welk? What is it about the 'appeal' of hip hop or rap that makes that style of music incompatable with praising the Lord? </font>[/QUOTE]Almost all who participate in this thread will acknowledge that something like Thrash Metal is wholly incompatible with the character and demeanor God desires for Christian worship. Exactly what is the appeal of Thrash Metal? Basically it satisfies (for now) one's lust for excess and riot. </font>[/QUOTE]Or someone who just likes loud music and screaming. Not everyone prefers vanilla.


But that aside, basically your argument is that since MOST hip-hop & rap is about pimpin' & booty, therefore that style of music cannot ever be used to glorify the Lord. Fine. Thank you for establishing the paramiters of your argument.

Of course, by the same logic that you have used for hip-hop & rap we can also conclude that since most human speech & writings do not glorify the Lord, no speech or writing can be used to glorify Him.

Intent is everything, my friend.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Grimlock Prime:
But that aside, basically your argument is that since MOST hip-hop & rap is about pimpin' & booty, therefore that style of music cannot ever be used to glorify the Lord. Fine. Thank you for establishing the paramiters of your argument.

That's not my argument at all. I said, and I repeat, "The music which engenders feelings compatible with spirituality is good music, and music which engenders feelings pleasing to the flesh is bad." Where from that do you get anything about the subject matter of songs?

Of course, by the same logic...

That's not my logic, so your point is moot.

Or someone who just likes loud music and screaming. Not everyone prefers vanilla.

It doesn't matter what people prefer. God has forbidden excess and riot, and musical styles that are excessive or riotous do not fall within the boundaries of God's standards for Christian conduct. FYI, it was a big CCM fan that classified Thrash Metal as out of bounds, not I.

Intent is everything.

Sez who? God is the one who says what glorifies Him, not men.

 

[Eric B]

Yeah, and I see a lot of men trying to define what glorifies Him or not, with no real proof from His word as actually pertains to a given style or rhythm (and what it necessarily "engenders"), other than just extremes like thrash metal.

 

[webdog]

That's not my argument at all. I said, and I repeat, "The music which engenders feelings compatible with spirituality is good music, and music which engenders feelings pleasing to the flesh is bad." Where from that do you get anything about the subject matter of songs?

Do you like or watch sports on TV? Do you do this with the intent of feeling spiritual, or because you LIKE sports, which according to you is bad? I hope you have nothing in life that you enjoy outside of spirituality.

It doesn't matter what people prefer. God has forbidden excess and riot, and musical styles that are excessive or riotous do not fall within the boundaries of God's standards for Christian conduct. FYI, it was a big CCM fan that classified Thrash Metal as out of bounds, not I.

False assumption. I like grinding guitars and yelling and I have never had the urge to riot or do anything "excessively" because of it. What is "excessive" music? I can argue it is when someone adds too much piano and holds a note too long, or when and organ is louder than a piano. Still is not sinful.

Intent is everything.

Sez who? God is the one who says what glorifies Him, not men.

And you know for fact that God is not pleased with CCM? God tells us what glorifies him, and CCM was never mentioned in the Bible as something that does not.

 

[D28guy]

I personally believe God was pleased with the Jesus music of the hippies that were born again in the late 60's and 70's, and He is pleased with CCM today...but not all of it.

The scriptures admonish us to be careful to abstain from even the appearance of evil. They also admonish us that we once were of the darkness, but now are of the light, so behave like children of the light and not like like children of the darkness.

Now, I fully realise that one can go to an extreme in that way.

(Gee, there is a porn shop on this block, so I better not walk down this sidewalk to the grocery store because someone might see me and think I am walking to the porn shop, etc...)

Yes one can go overboard with this...as hard core legalists prove time and again.

But some "christian" music has big time problems.

I have heard on radio and seen on TV some of this stuff (I guess it would be christian punk or grunge) where the kids are lurching around on stage exactly like the secular kids do. Its almost as if they are trying to look like they are under the influence of demons or something...just like the lost kids look like.

I've seen some christian rapping where the kids look and act as dangerous, goonish, thuggish and menacing as the hilarious and pitiful rappers in the world do.

I've seen these thrash or death metal christian bands where the kids play and act while playing as if they needed psychological help just like the poor ones in the world look like.

And in all these cases its not uncommon at all to not be able to understand a single thing that is being screamed from the rockers or spewed forth from the rappers.

Someone said that intent is everything. I agree...but so is presentation.

The hippes back then kept their long hair and wore jeans, etc...but they cleaned up. No more pathetic lurching around like a moron or screaming lyrics like a banchee. After conversion, they still played rock music but they simply stood there and played, talked in between songs, and sang so people could understand the lyrics and not wonder if their hearing is going to be damaged for life.

Someone much earlier in this thread mentiond some rap group that simply stood their and rapped, at reasonable volume, and behaved like christians as they did this.

If that is so then I have no prolemn whatsoever with that group, or any other who sing, play and behave appropriatly for christians.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Eric B]

I've seen some christian rapping where the kids look and act as dangerous, goonish, thuggish and menacing as the hilarious and pitiful rappers in the world do.

Not to mention, names like "God'z Gangstas" (and now there is one "the Gospel Gangstas", or might that be the same group?).
Stuff like that I think is going way too far, because they are copying even the indelibly evil aspects of the secular style. ("gangsters" has a purely evil connotation, and a group of people carrying forth the Gospel, even though they may technically be called a "gang", are in no way "gangsters").

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Eric B:
Yeah, and I see a lot of men trying to define what glorifies Him or not, with no real proof from His word...

You mean no proof that you would accept.

...other than just extremes like thrash metal.

Extremes are where folks are generally agreed. The point was to show that everyone uses the Scriptures to judge musical styles, and everyone judges them on the same premise, the general mood created by it.

Naturally, there will be disagreements about where to draw the line with more temperate forms, but that doesn't mean a line can't or shouldn't be drawn.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by webdog:
Do you like or watch sports on TV? Do you do this with the intent of feeling spiritual, or because you LIKE sports, which according to you is bad? I hope you have nothing in life that you enjoy outside of spirituality.

What are you arguing for here? That it's okay to be a little carnal? What do the Scriptures say?

I like grinding guitars and yelling and I have never had the urge to riot or do anything "excessively" because of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by riot, but its use in the Scriptures does not describe something that one would have to call the riot police for. It describes uninhibited, wild extravagance. It can describe anything from a gaudy style of dress to one's behavior at a party, or even the way folks decorate their houses and yards.

For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:

What is "excessive" music? I can argue it is when someone adds too much piano and holds a note too long, or when and organ is louder than a piano. Still is not sinful.

Excessive anything, except the Spirit of God where there can be no excess, is sin.

And you know for fact that God is not pleased with CCM? God tells us what glorifies him, and CCM was never mentioned in the Bible as something that does not.

All I've said so far is that music which engenders feelings compatible with spirituality is good, and music that doesn't is bad.

We will most likely disagree over how to tell the difference, but you at least have to acknowledge that fact.

 

[webdog]

I'm not sure what you mean by riot, but its use in the Scriptures does not describe something that one would have to call the riot police for. It describes uninhibited, wild extravagance. It can describe anything from a gaudy style of dress to one's behavior at a party, or even the way folks decorate their houses and yards.

You claim decorating your yard "too much" is a sin? That's a first

I better not listen to CCM because it may make me decorate my yard "extravagantly"

All I've said so far is that music which engenders feelings compatible with spirituality is good, and music that doesn't is bad.

So if you like something not associated with spirituality, it's bad? Scriptural proof, please. You can honestly say there is nothing in your life you enjoy not relating to spirituality? Cars? Sports? Clothes? Your family? Give me a break! This is legalism at it's worst!

We will most likely disagree over how to tell the difference, but you at least have to acknowledge that fact.

No I don't! Everything the Lord has given to me, I enjoy, even thing not directly related to spirituality (sports, cars, exercise, landscaping), as well as things relating to spirituality. My life is to be lived in worship to Him, everything associated with my life. Deuteronomy 14:26, after the tithe was paid, the Lord said to spend your money "...for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires..." While I have no desire to buy farm animals, I do like to by CCM, sporting even tickets, clothes and cars. Funny how God says it's not sin, huh?