thomas15
Well-Known Member
Actually, tongues are not a big issue with me, they are in fact a big issue with you! For the last days, be armed with the truth of the Scriptures. Anything else, well son, your on your own!
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Holy Spirit
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Actually, tongues are not a big issue with me, they are in fact a big issue with you! For the last days, be armed with the truth of the Scriptures. Anything else, well son, your on your own!
thomas15
Well-Known Member
awaken, it is a mistake on my part not to hold your feet to the fire so to speak with regards to answering some of the questions being asked of you but your not going to answer them anyway so it's no loss.
Could not the same arguements that you use ie: satan attacking you "sign gifters" (a sign of the end times), could that not be used by us dispies who use the Bible to claim a pre-mil pre-trib rapture of the NT Saints and a restoration of Israel as the people of God after a 7 year tribulation period and glorious return of the Lord Jesus for a 1000 year Kingdom? Post after post of Baptists disparaging this point of view but I don't see anyone playing the victim as quickly as effortlessly as you do.
Could not the same arguements that you use ie: satan attacking you "sign gifters" (a sign of the end times), could that not be used by us dispies who use the Bible to claim a pre-mil pre-trib rapture of the NT Saints and a restoration of Israel as the people of God after a 7 year tribulation period and glorious return of the Lord Jesus for a 1000 year Kingdom? Post after post of Baptists disparaging this point of view but I don't see anyone playing the victim as quickly as effortlessly as you do.
I am not the one that is bringing tongues into this conversation...So Again tongues aside...why do you believe that once the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost for power to carry out the His mission that He now has taken that power away? Why do you believe that only the apostles has that power?
I have given scriptures with everything I have presented...I do not see that with yours...only accusations!
Acts 2 says in verse 39..
"For the promise (Holy Spirit/Acts 1:8) is unto you (those present), and to your children (the next generation), and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call (that is us)."
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Again, when your speaking in and hearing of tongues happen in the exact manner of Acts ch 2 let me know.
So I will take that as you have no scripture proof of what you are claiming!
The promise spoken of in Acts 2.....is the promise of being resurrected In Christ,to all who believe.
The promise of the Spirit to the apostles[ acts1]was a fulfillment of Jesus promise to them in Jn14,15,16,17.
If you study Acts 2....it is speaking of a different promise made from the Father to the Son...and to us.
You cannot misuse verses by making them say what is not warranted. Those who mistakenly try and make this case have to attempt it...because they are making it up.
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I am not making anything up...it is clear in Acts that he is referring back to Acts 1:4-5 .."wait for the promise of the Father, which saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; buy ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
also 1:8.."But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me...."
Most Christian denominations (whether they are "mainline" or "charismatic") believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is automatically received by a person at the moment of salvation. But is this the same thing as the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit?
To answer this question, I first looked at the five events in the New Testament which are often described as being the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)
In Acts 1:5 (a few days before Pentecost) Jesus told the disciples that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit in just a few days:
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (Acts 1:5,8)
This promise was fulfilled a few days later on the day of Pentecost:
"When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)
Notice the terms which are used above to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
"when the Holy Spirit comes on you"
"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit"
To answer this question, I first looked at the five events in the New Testament which are often described as being the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)
In Acts 1:5 (a few days before Pentecost) Jesus told the disciples that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit in just a few days:
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (Acts 1:5,8)
This promise was fulfilled a few days later on the day of Pentecost:
"When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)
Notice the terms which are used above to describe the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
"when the Holy Spirit comes on you"
"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit"
Note...
there are NO recordings of sign gifts, as in revelation being giving/written/ tongues/miracles outside of the Apostolic Age....
Also, Please read hebrews , as the writer made it really clear that the message of Christ HAD already been confirmed by Apostolic signs/wonders...
Tongues were needed as a sign to the Jews, and tongues/prophesies were needed in early Church, as scriptures not yet fully written assembled...
I am a "new calvinist", so not a full cesseasinist, but also saythat N
NE has the gifts as Apsotle had to heal, do miracles etc, as today God Himself does those kind of things when He chooses to!CANNOT take the accounts recorded in Acts and amke all of them the norm for today!
Pentacost unique event, not repeated!
we are NEVER coomanded to be baptised int he Holy Spirit, as ALL are by him at salvation, but we ARE all commanded to stay filled with him, and tongues NOT sure sign of that!
Note...
there are NO recordings of sign gifts, as in revelation being giving/written/ tongues/miracles outside of the Apostolic Age....
Also, Please read hebrews , as the writer made it really clear that the message of Christ HAD already been confirmed by Apostolic signs/wonders...
Tongues were needed as a sign to the Jews, and tongues/prophesies were needed in early Church, as scriptures not yet fully written assembled...
I am a "new calvinist", so not a full cesseasinist, but also saythat N
God did it then...and He does it now! Man never had the ability...it has always been God!
You keep saying this with not scripture proof. I never said that the apostles or even Jesus for that matter was confirmed by miracles.
Some people say the "Age of Miracles" ended in the first century, but the New Testament never says anything about an Age of Miracles which will only last for a few decades after the cross. In fact, the greatest weight of Scriptural evidence shows that the entire Church Age (which includes us modern Christians) is supposed to be an age of miracles.
Why were those things given by god though? To confirm the truth of Yeshua as the messiah, and to confirm the Gospel message!
That has been completed and done, as Hebrews attested to!
I understand Pentecost not being repeated...Just like the passover etc.
But didn't Jesus have a seperate experience too?
Again...
"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)
God specifically said that He will pour out His Spirit on all types of people, and notice that He did not put any time limit on this. God did not say "I will pour out my Spirit for 60 or 70 years until the last apostle has died." Instead, God said that He will pour out His Spirit on people regardless of gender, age, social position, or time period.
You do understand what I posted.You will not understand it ,unless you read the chapters I offered.
What did Jesus promise the Apostles in Jn14,15, 16, 17?
That is what Acts 1 repeats.
In Acts 2...what did the Father promise the Son in Psalm 16???
do not ignore the verses, it is two seperate things.
OH..I understand what the Holy Spirit/comforter will do
Convict men of the sin of unbelief, that Jesus is the righteousness of God, that the power of Satan has been broken.
Regenerate the believer
Indwell the believer
Seal the believer
Baptize the believer
infill the believer
Empower the believer
Lead the believer
Administer spiritual gifts to the believer
The Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost, to remain with the church until it is complete and presented to the Lord Jesus at His coming. Just as Jesus Christ finished the work He came to do in the flesh, so the Holy Spirit will finish the work He came to do in the church.
Yes... the Spirit does all of these things in the life of believers....equipping us to serve the Lord. That does not change the two seperate things I addressed to you, at all:wavey: can you address the questions I asked you?
My answers in bold..
The Bible says that in the first century, the Lord confirmed His Word by miraculous signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit ( Mark 16:20, Acts 14:3, and Hebrews 2:3-4). The exciting reality is that the Lord will still confirm the preaching of His Word to this day with miraculous signs and wonders and healings! So why don't we see more miracles? Because miracles require faith, and many modern Christians do not really have faith that miracles and healings can happen right in front of their eyes. That's why it appears as if miracles have "died out." But they haven't! Miracles are for today!
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