So how do you or Ransom know that torturing puppies is a malicious and evil thing?</font>[/QUOTE]Primarily because I know and accept the concrete definitions of the words. I don't find it necessary to change or challenge definitions in order to make my views consistent with what the Bible plainly states.
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Homosexuality and Scripture
- Thread starter post-it
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Which of course is not the claim of fundamentalists. We claim that He inspired it and since it was directly inspired by Him it cannot contain error.
Of course, your language is chosen in an effort to make those who believe in the fundamental Bible doctrine appear ignorant.
False dichotomy. The "church" is properly defined and limited by the Bible.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether absolute truth exists or not. Also, "it" has not experienced anything. The church is made up of individuals many of whom haven't even shared the same living years. To make man's changing philosophies the standard by which we judge the Bible or "truth" is foolish.
Ransom, I have already shown the context mistake you made using 1 Corith. Let me go over it again for you.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals..."
This verse is referring to "the unrighteous", not the saved. Read it again in context so you can understand the real meaning.
I read it just fine; this isn't the rocket scientists the sophists make it out to be.
Clearly 1 Cor. 6:9 lists idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, etc. as forms of unrighteousness. Those who practice them are, by definition, unrighteous, and therefore shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Clearly 1 Cor. 6:9 lists idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, etc. as forms of unrighteousness. Those who practice them are, by definition, unrighteous, and therefore shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Sorry Ransom, but one can't a believer if they are also an idolator. Being an idolator indicates that one can't possibly understand that God is the one and only God and what Jesus did for us on the cross. Idolators are "non-believers", the unrighteous.
There is a very clear distinction between Christian and non-Christian when this passage is used.
Thank you for proving my point, post-it. If an "idolator" cannot be a believer, then this very same passage demonstrates that neither can a fornicator, an adulterer, a homosexual, a thief, a reviler, or any of the other sins listed in 1 Cor. 6:9-10.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, in other words.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, in other words.
post-it said:
But a Christian can't by an unbeliever. So the list still stands as an example of what types can describe up the unrighteous.
Yes, it does describe up the unrighteous, and both "idolator" and "homosexual" are on that list, and furthermore it says such people have no place in God's kingdom.
Paul states his general principle when he says that "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God." The list of specific sins is, essentially, case law.
Idolators are unrighteous. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Drunkards are unrighteous. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Homosexuals are unrighteous. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
As I said . . . this isn't exactly rocket science.
But a Christian can't by an unbeliever. So the list still stands as an example of what types can describe up the unrighteous.
Yes, it does describe up the unrighteous, and both "idolator" and "homosexual" are on that list, and furthermore it says such people have no place in God's kingdom.
Paul states his general principle when he says that "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God." The list of specific sins is, essentially, case law.
Idolators are unrighteous. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Drunkards are unrighteous. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Homosexuals are unrighteous. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
As I said . . . this isn't exactly rocket science.
I feel that both post it and Joshua need again to spend time in a gay ministry before they try to defend gay rights. Joshua you may have people in the church you attend who are gay but a couple of people is not enough to really understand this lifestyle. For some reason most of them are not honest about this lifestyle when they attend a church but only tell people what they think they want to hear but outside of this setting they are easier to get the truth out of them.
When I was working with the Gay outreach ministry the men I dealt with said that they knew they were not born Homosexual. This was a gay rights agenda ploy to get government benefits and a minority status. They felt like they were addicts. Addicted to sex. Many of them even said they made gay sex their idol. Their God.
Post it argues using the basis of monogamous but Gay men are not monogamous. They will live with one person for months and even years but they are not sexually faithful to them. This is why there is such violence in this lifestyle. Promiscuity
is the norm. They go to bars and bathhouses to solicit sex. They go to public parks to pick up guys.
This shows us the addiction.
I dealt with one young man who would cry and weep and plead with God to deliver him from this lifestyle. He would go to church. He would try so hard but he kept failing not because he is human but because he would not give up somethings that kept him bound to this lifestyle. The way he dressed. The words and actions he used. He was repeatedly warned about inviting gay men to his home unless there was heterosexual men around but his excuse was they were also trying to come out of the lifestyle but they always fell into sin. He went back into the lifestyle fully and is back to his promiscuous lifestyle going from one man to another.
This is the truth of this sin. These people were not born Gay. They were not created Gay. They chose to be this way. They want to be this way.
Yet, their choice will cost them their souls.
When I was working with the Gay outreach ministry the men I dealt with said that they knew they were not born Homosexual. This was a gay rights agenda ploy to get government benefits and a minority status. They felt like they were addicts. Addicted to sex. Many of them even said they made gay sex their idol. Their God.
Post it argues using the basis of monogamous but Gay men are not monogamous. They will live with one person for months and even years but they are not sexually faithful to them. This is why there is such violence in this lifestyle. Promiscuity
is the norm. They go to bars and bathhouses to solicit sex. They go to public parks to pick up guys.
This shows us the addiction.
I dealt with one young man who would cry and weep and plead with God to deliver him from this lifestyle. He would go to church. He would try so hard but he kept failing not because he is human but because he would not give up somethings that kept him bound to this lifestyle. The way he dressed. The words and actions he used. He was repeatedly warned about inviting gay men to his home unless there was heterosexual men around but his excuse was they were also trying to come out of the lifestyle but they always fell into sin. He went back into the lifestyle fully and is back to his promiscuous lifestyle going from one man to another.
This is the truth of this sin. These people were not born Gay. They were not created Gay. They chose to be this way. They want to be this way.
Yet, their choice will cost them their souls.
Rev. Joshua
<img src=/cjv.jpg>
hrhema - I don't know how much more experience I could possibly have on this issue. I've worked with hundreds of gay and lesbian couples as their pastor, chaplain, or colleague (including one couple I went to seminary with). Our church has a widely-publicized stand of welcoming and affirming homosexual believers, so we have many, many G/L couples and a few transgender members.
There are people who choose to be gay. There are people who choose to be promiscuous. There are people for whom homosexuality is sinful and unhealthy. That does not mean that homosexuality is any more inherently sinful than heterosexuality. Likewsie, that does not mean that some people are not born gay.
Joshua
Joshua
There are people who choose to be gay. There are people who choose to be promiscuous. There are people for whom homosexuality is sinful and unhealthy. That does not mean that homosexuality is any more inherently sinful than heterosexuality. Likewsie, that does not mean that some people are not born gay.
Joshua
Joshua
Rev Joshua and Post-it, what else can Romans 1 be saying if it is not condemning homosexual behaviour. (Whether in or out of marriage.) With the relevant verses, 24-32, show how homosexual behaviour is acceptable in the sight of God?
[ September 17, 2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: M Wickens ]
[ September 17, 2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: M Wickens ]
Joshua: Please explain to me how a person can be born Gay. Does a child have sexual tendencies to know about sex until that child is taught.
You claim you have dealt with all these gay people but you have bought into the lies and propaganda they have told you.
God created them male and female not male and male. So what you are saying is God lied and God created some totally different then he created others. That God who said it is an abomination for a man to lie in intercourse with another man and made this sin a capital offense an hypocrite. What you are saying is God will have to raise up all those he ordered put to death and apologize to them for he created them as such.
I guarantee that if your church did not open their arms to allowing these people to continue living in sin you would find out the truth about this lifestyle. It is because you and your church opens the doors to allowing them to continue living in sin they keep lying to you and others because why should they be honest since they are allowed to live in sin.
No Christian church should refuse to allow Gay people to be part of their church as long as they make a total commitment to change. A change that can happen. Too many have come out of the lifestyle and has been delivered for years. Prime example is Dennis Jernigan.
You know about 50% of these men turned gay because they did not have a male role model in their life. Either their dad walked out, died, or just did not care and gave them absolutely no male attention they needed. Many of them were raised by mothers who were overprotective and basically tried to raise them like a girl. Thus the gender identification problem. Many were abused by male friends, family members etc. They were created not born that way.
The other 50% are just flat out evil. They live this lifestyle because they crave the perverseness
You claim you have dealt with all these gay people but you have bought into the lies and propaganda they have told you.
God created them male and female not male and male. So what you are saying is God lied and God created some totally different then he created others. That God who said it is an abomination for a man to lie in intercourse with another man and made this sin a capital offense an hypocrite. What you are saying is God will have to raise up all those he ordered put to death and apologize to them for he created them as such.
I guarantee that if your church did not open their arms to allowing these people to continue living in sin you would find out the truth about this lifestyle. It is because you and your church opens the doors to allowing them to continue living in sin they keep lying to you and others because why should they be honest since they are allowed to live in sin.
No Christian church should refuse to allow Gay people to be part of their church as long as they make a total commitment to change. A change that can happen. Too many have come out of the lifestyle and has been delivered for years. Prime example is Dennis Jernigan.
You know about 50% of these men turned gay because they did not have a male role model in their life. Either their dad walked out, died, or just did not care and gave them absolutely no male attention they needed. Many of them were raised by mothers who were overprotective and basically tried to raise them like a girl. Thus the gender identification problem. Many were abused by male friends, family members etc. They were created not born that way.
The other 50% are just flat out evil. They live this lifestyle because they crave the perverseness
Rev. Joshua
<img src=/cjv.jpg>
hrhema, I'm not sure there's much point in continuing dialogue with you. You seem absolutely certain that every single gay or lesbian person acts according to the model you have constructed in your head. The reality (if that concerns you) is that there is the same diversity in the homosexual community that there is in the heterosexual community.
I've met promiscuous homosexual persons and I've met monogamous ones. Whether you believe me (or them) is irrelevant.
Joshua
I've met promiscuous homosexual persons and I've met monogamous ones. Whether you believe me (or them) is irrelevant.
Joshua
Rev. Joshua
<img src=/cjv.jpg>
MW, all that Romans 1 shows is that Paul chooses to use same-sex licentiousness and promiscuity as an example of a kind of general depravity. I try not to confuse Paul's metaphors with God's eternal will.
Joshua
Joshua
KeeperOfMyHome
New Member
Homosexuality goes against the very nature of man and woman as God created them. God created us and commanded us to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Let me see that happen in a gay or lesbian relationship!
Later on, in Genesis 2, He says shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
God never, ever says that that a man is to leave his father and mother and cleave to another man! Neither is he to become one flesh with another man! That is not possible! Again, it goes against the nature of how we were created.
Were homosexuality an option in forming relationships, I feel quite certain that God would've made mention of it in His word!
Julia
Later on, in Genesis 2, He says shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
God never, ever says that that a man is to leave his father and mother and cleave to another man! Neither is he to become one flesh with another man! That is not possible! Again, it goes against the nature of how we were created.
Were homosexuality an option in forming relationships, I feel quite certain that God would've made mention of it in His word!
Julia
Okay everyone, go through your junk drawer at home. Look for all the ball point pens. Okay, now do a survey: There's a pen that you put in your pocket at work and brought home. There's the pen that you borrowed from you uncle Bob and never returned. There's the pen you ised at the bank and slipped in your pocket. There's the pen you took from the church pew to fill our the pledge card, and neglected to put back. Now guess what? You're a thief. You stole. What? it wasn't your intention? It "just happenned"? You were going to return them, but you just didn't get around to it? If that were true, then you wouldn't have kept them all this time. Congratulations, according to 1Cor 6:9 you can't get into heaven.
Oh, I see now. God burned Sodom and Gomorrah because the elders stole the church's pens. 
[ September 18, 2002, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]
[ September 18, 2002, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]
Johnv said:
If that were true, then you wouldn't have kept them all this time. Congratulations, according to 1Cor 6:9 you can't get into heaven.
Keep reading, John.
Contra the false claims of post-it and his fellow antinomians, this includes homosexual practices. There is no such thing as a practicing Christian homosexual. It is a contradiction in terms, just like a practicing Christian idolator.
If that were true, then you wouldn't have kept them all this time. Congratulations, according to 1Cor 6:9 you can't get into heaven.
Keep reading, John.
Those who make a practice of thievery, idolatry, homosexuality, etc. do not inherit the kingdom, that is true. However, for those who are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of Christ, those wicked practices are a thing of the past. We are not saved in our sins, we are saved from them.
Contra the false claims of post-it and his fellow antinomians, this includes homosexual practices. There is no such thing as a practicing Christian homosexual. It is a contradiction in terms, just like a practicing Christian idolator.
Joshua,
Enlighten us. What is God's enternal will? What is it concerning this issue? What is God's moral code?
We have plainly seen in this thread how there is no way to come up with a moral code that would allow an individual to form their own definition of right and wrong for themselves based upon their heart. This idea has been proposed and shot down over and over again. What would you then propose? What argument can you come up with that will allow Christianity to say homosexuality is not a sin while still saying other things of similiar nature are sins? Mixing universal with subjective is not a way to make a good argument.
So, you have some homework to do. Here is your assignment.
1. State how Christianity can support the idea of homosexuality as a valid lifesytle and it not being a sin.
2. Give us the moral code which will allow this while not also contradicting itself in other ways. For instance, you cannot have a moral code that says that sex outside of marriage (porneia or sexual immorality) is wrong and also have the same moral code say homosexual sex is a conviction of the heart of the person in question (porneia or sexual immorality also).
3. Show how God allows this....and show how all the examples given in scripture are not valid (ie. Wrong)
Basically, you now have the burden of proof(as it should have been from the beginning).