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Honest (but perhaps offensive) question:

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by John Wells:
The statement you refer to implies that we should love God/Jesus above all else, but are you really proposing that the Bible teaches we are to "deny our family" in fulfilling our kingdom work?
If that is what God has called you to do, then "yes." Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62, and Luke 14:26 say quite clearly that the God's call comes before children, wives, mothers, and fathers.

Men are called to be spiritual leaders of their families and to provide for and protect them.
That we are. Our higher call though - is for Christ.

Yes, missionaries and their families sometimes lose their lives because of where they are and what they are doing. Sharing the gospel has always been dangerous work. Just ask the Apostle Paul!
Yes. An old friend of mine lost a loved one in Yemen when the Christians were killed in Yemen some months ago.

But show me one instance where Jesus taught, or anyone in the Bible said to a non-believer, "If you'll accept Christ as your savior, I'll give up my life." I think your question has crossed over into the realm of ridiculous! :eek:
He did give up his life for the non-believers. Men have risked their lives for non-believers. Do you just not feel comfortable in asking the question?

What is more important to you: the salvation of the aforementioned person or your own life?
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
[QB] Scott,

You said,

"Acts shows that there were special ministries depending on need. So why shouldn't we?"

No it doesn't, and we shouldn't. "Preach the gospel to every creature" is what the Lord said.
Read again. There was a specific ministry to the poor (Acts 4:33-34) and a specific minsitry to the widows (Acts 6:1-7). We also read in Acts 15 that there were specific ministries - one designed for the Jews, the other for the Gentiles.

"There should be [speical ministries for various sins]. God desires their salvation as much as he desired ours."

Sure God desire "their" salvation as much as "ours" - we are them buddy! That doesn't prove anything about special interest groups for sinners, a concept which is foreign to the Bible.
The Bible talks about it in Acts. Do we see a prohibition against it in the Bible?

"Those who have been redeemed from homosexuality don't whine about how bad the world has treated them."

Of course not all do, but the ones involved in the special interest groups do. I've heard them do it on the radio.
Who are they? What do they say? What are their evidences that they have been redeemed? Have you talked to any of them one-on-one to find out their heart?

"So what is your answer to the question? Is a homosexual's salvation more important than your life?"

No, and if called upon to die for taking a stand against the sin of sodomy I hope I would do so and would hope that my doing so might convict some sodomite of his need of Christ.
So, to you, the best way of evangelism is to tell the Sodomite what an abomination he is to God? Am I reading this right?

And a further question: What kind of stands do you take now against homosexuality? What kind of fruits do you see? Are people being saved because of your testimony?

And one more: Where is the love in doing so?

When I preach the gospel I don't ask people what their personal sins are - I just preach it. I've never been called on do die for it or even to suffer bodily harm, but I would hope that, if called on to do so, I would, and, if I did, that my stand would bring some unbeliever - sodomite or otherwise - to Christ.
In the near future, I will answer my own question. From the answers I have seen so far, my guess is that my answer will surprise some people.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I am not called to die for their salvation.
Didn't say you were. It is not a matter of providing salvation. Is your life more important than the salvation of this person?

What I do to help all sinners (homosexual or not) is pray for them, preach the word, and share the good news of freedom through Christ with them.[/quote]

Do you go out of your way to show them Christian love?

If they are caught in the sinful lifestyle of Homosexuality, I tell them so.
How can anyone understand sin without understanding the love of Christ?

I love the sinner and hate the sin. However, loving the sinner doesn't mean candy coating the sin in order to make them feel better about going to Hell.
We live in a world where Christianity is all to quick to condemn the sin and not show love to the sinner.

Joseph Botwinick [/QB][/QUOTE]
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
This question was posed first by Edwin McManus:

Would you be willing to lay down your life for a cross-dressing homosexual to come to Christ?

If so, what are you doing now, then, to help him come to Christ?

If not, why not?
I had always said "yes" to questions like that. I thought that I would be ready to give myself up for someone else's life. It sounded so noble and "Christian" to say "yes." It wasn't until I specifically understood what Paul was talking about when he said, "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. I wish that I myself were accursed for the sake of my brothers," in Romans 9:2-3.

My church and another church held our own youth camp this year. We had about 130 students or so there. One of the girls in 7th grade came. She was raised Catholic, but was not saved. She had been asking questions to some of the other girls, and they told me about it. On Thursday, I sat down with her for about forty-five minutes and shared the gospel with her. She knew what she needed to do, but there was something holding her back. She knew what would happen (or believed she did) when she got home.

For the rest of the night, God was working on her, and me as well. It continued through the day. She spent a lot of time quiet, sitting by herself, contemplating the decision to abandon everything and follow Christ. She knew that salvation isn't about a specific prayer - it is about a surrendering of everything to place Christ as Lord of her life. My heart was burdened for her all day.

That night, the students were together and the adults were together, and I was just burdened to lead the adults in prayer. It was at that time that the Spirit of God just began working, and I began weeping and praying as I had never done before. It was right at that time that I understood exactly what Paul meant when he wrote what he did in Romans 9.

God is awesome in what he does. In what can only be seen as a miracle, at the same time I was praying, and unbeknownst to me, she was praying with a friend of hers to accept Christ. She came in a few minutes later with tears of joy in her eyes, came and gave me a big hug, told me what happened, and we just stood there crying.

That feeling comes and goes every now and then with lost people who don't know Christ, but not as often as I think it should. The feeling happened again when an eighth grader began talking to me about salvation and wanting to know what it took to be a Christian a few weeks ago. I felt the pain of the realization that this person, if she didn't make a decision to follow Christ, would spend eternity apart from me.

That said, and as embarrassed as I am to say, my answer would be "no." So far, I haven't felt like Paul did around strangers or anyone with whom I haven't built a relationship. I love my students in my ministry so much that it hurts sometime when I realize that some of them are not saved. That is the kind of love that I want to develop for all people, no matter who they are, what they have done - because that is the way Christ felt for people. That is the way he felt for me.

People can run circles around the question, and dodge it as much as possible, but when it comes down to it, I see so often on this board that there is more hatred and disdain for people because of what they have done or who they are than there is unconditional love. That is so against what we have been taught. The only people that Jesus pointed fingers at and yelled about their specific sins were the Pharisees - the religious leaders of their day. I wonder why we've lost that and aare consumed with preaching AGAINST sin instead of preaching WITH love to an undying world who grows alienated from a religion that does more telling them how bad they are instead of how awesome Jesus Christ is.


Bonhoeffer, in "Cost of Discipleship," wrote, "When Jesus calls a man, he bids him come and die."
 

donnA

Active Member
Originally posted by ColoradoFB:
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
We are not told nor commanded to do so.
 

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[qb] I wonder why we've lost that and aare consumed with preaching AGAINST sin instead of preaching WITH love to an undying world who grows alienated from a religion that does more telling them how bad they are instead of how awesome Jesus Christ is.


Bonhoeffer, in "Cost of Discipleship," wrote, "When Jesus calls a man, he bids him come and die."
For me, when I was saved, it wasn't until I realized how evil and bad and sinful I was that I realized how great God was and what a miracle it was that God broke through my sin and saved me. Too many churches today have thrown away the message of the Bible for feel good emotional experiences so that lost people can feel good about their sins. If only God had been that way for Annanias and Saphira. You will reap what you sow. God will not be mocked. You need to really go back and read the Bible. We are in big trouble if all we really want is for a false prohet to tickle our ears. Your comments remind me of the Israeli King who told God's prophet, Amos the following:

“Do not prophecy against Israel, and stop preaching against the house of Isaac” (Amos 7:16).

God had a message for Israel then, and I believe it is still relevant today:

“Woe to you who are complacent in Zion, and to you who feel secure on Mount Samaria, you notable men of the foremost nation, to whom the people of Israel come! Go to Calneh and look at it; go from there to great Hamath, and then go down to Gath in Phillistia. Are they better off than your two kingdoms? Is their land larger than yours? You put off the evil day and bring near a reign of terror. You lie on beds inlaid with ivory and lounge on your couches. You dine on choice lambs and fattened calves. You strum away on your harps like David and improvise on musical instruments. You drink wine by the bowlful and use the finest lotions, BUT YOU DO NOT GRIEVE OVER THE RUIN OF JOSEPH. Therefore you will be among the first to go into exile; your feasting and lounging will end” (Amos 6:1-7).

Joseph Botwinick
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
This question was posed first by Edwin McManus:

Would you be willing to lay down your life for a cross-dressing homosexual to come to Christ?
Hey, what about the cross dressing heterosexuals :confused:

Okay, jest aside, we're called to have love in a manner in which we would lay down our lives for our friends, regardless of whether or not they might come to christ, or already be with christ. I would lay down my life for any of you on the board. But since you are all my friends, I also know that no one here abould abuse that type of love from anyone else.
 

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[qb] That feeling comes and goes every now and then with lost people who don't know Christ, but not as often as I think it should. The feeling happened again when an eighth grader began talking to me about salvation and wanting to know what it took to be a Christian a few weeks ago. I felt the pain of the realization that this person, if she didn't make a decision to follow Christ, would spend eternity apart from me.
The sad part of this is that it seems to me that she prayed the prayer, not really as a choice for Christ, but rather, so she wouldn't spend eternity apart from you. I certainly hope that wasn't the emotional experience used to manipulate her into praying a prayer. Only God knows if she was sincere. I certainly hope and pray that she was.

Joseph Botwinick
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
QUOTE]The sad part of this is that it seems to me that she prayed the prayer, not really as a choice for Christ, but rather, so she wouldn't spend eternity apart from you. I certainly hope that wasn't the emotional experience used to manipulate her into praying a prayer. Only God knows if she was sincere. I certainly hope and pray that she was.

Joseph Botwinick [/QB]
The sad part is actually that you would say something like this. Since the time of her conversion, she has memorized more Scripture than most adults I know. She has voraciously read the Word of God more than other her age are reading the new Harry Potter book. She is already witnessing to her friends and telling them what a change Jesus Christ made in her life. She is reading the psalms and understanding what worship is all about.

Question me all you want, but what in the world gives you the right to judge a decision of a teenager to follow Christ? Like I said, I don't lead teenagers in this ABC and BANG! You're saved. That's not what salvation is according to the Bible. Salvation occurs only when a person is willing to sacrifice everything and place Christ as Lord in his or her life. That's what salvation is - not a prayer.

She didn't become a Christian for me at all. I didn't come up in the conversation at all. What we talked about was how God was working in her life, calling her to come to Him.

If you've never met her (as you haven't) then leave your demeaning and self-assured comments to yourself, please.
 

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I am not called to die for their salvation.
Didn't say you were. It is not a matter of providing salvation. Is your life more important than the salvation of this person?</font>[/QUOTE]There is no connection between the two. On what scripture are you basing this philosophy and what exactly is your point?

What I do to help all sinners (homosexual or not) is pray for them, preach the word, and share the good news of freedom through Christ with them.[/quote]

Do you go out of your way to show them Christian love?
[/QUOTE]

If by that you mean, do I go out of my way to make them feel better about their sin, then no. And neither did Jesus. If by that you mean do I treat them as friends, pray for them, and share the Gospel with them calling them to repent, then yes. And so did Jesus.

If they are caught in the sinful lifestyle of Homosexuality, I tell them so.
How can anyone understand sin without understanding the love of Christ?
[/QUOTE]

The Holy Spirit working through the preaching of the Word of God.

I love the sinner and hate the sin. However, loving the sinner doesn't mean candy coating the sin in order to make them feel better about going to Hell.
We live in a world where Christianity is all to quick to condemn the sin and not show love to the sinner.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree. We live in a world where the so-called "Christian" church is all too quick to wink at sin and make people feel better about their sins while they go to Hell.

Joseph Botwinick
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
For me, when I was saved, it wasn't until I realized how evil and bad and sinful I was that I realized how great God was and what a miracle it was that God broke through my sin and saved me.
Tell us more. How did you realize this? Is it because someone pointed a finger at how terrible you were? Or were you exposed to the love of Christ and realized how far you fell short of that love? All of those who I have been exposed to will echo that they compared themselves with Christ to come to that conclusion - NOT because someone pointed a finger and told them just how wretched of a person they were.

Too many churches today have thrown away the message of the Bible for feel good emotional experiences so that lost people can feel good about their sins.
I've never seen a church like that, at least not a Baptist church. Can you provide documentation for what you are talking about?

If only God had been that way for Annanias and Saphira. You will reap what you sow. God will not be mocked. You need to really go back and read the Bible. We are in big trouble if all we really want is for a false prohet to tickle our ears.
Showing the love of Christ is not tickling their ears. You REALLY need to do a study on the love of Christ here. It's noticably absent here.

Your comments remind me of the Israeli King who told God's prophet, Amos the following:

“Do not prophecy against Israel, and stop preaching against the house of Isaac” (Amos 7:16).
Preach whenever possible, and if necessary, use words. The fact is that the world that we live in is built upon relationships. People are tired of being told how terrible they are. They hear that enough. Showing the love of Christ is what can enable many people to open up to an invitation to church or the gospel message. In doing so, we are not saying "Your sin is okay"; we are saying, "God loves you so much that He sent His son to die for you, in SPITE of all the things that you have done." What two different messages!

God had a message for Israel then, and I believe it is still relevant today:

“Woe to you who are complacent in Zion, and to you who feel secure on Mount Samaria, you notable men of the foremost nation, to whom the people of Israel come! Go to Calneh and look at it; go from there to great Hamath, and then go down to Gath in Phillistia. Are they better off than your two kingdoms? Is their land larger than yours? You put off the evil day and bring near a reign of terror. You lie on beds inlaid with ivory and lounge on your couches. You dine on choice lambs and fattened calves. You strum away on your harps like David and improvise on musical instruments. You drink wine by the bowlful and use the finest lotions, BUT YOU DO NOT GRIEVE OVER THE RUIN OF JOSEPH. Therefore you will be among the first to go into exile; your feasting and lounging will end” (Amos 6:1-7).
You are right - there is no love there. Where there is love, their is action, and where there is action, there is change.

Tell me, Joseph, what do you know about the love of Christ. How is it applicable in your life?
 

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
QUOTE]She didn't become a Christian for me at all. I didn't come up in the conversation at all. What we talked about was how God was working in her life, calling her to come to Him.

If you've never met her (as you haven't) then leave your demeaning and self-assured comments to yourself, please.
I am certainly glad to hear this. However, this statement contradicts yourself and shows that you didn't give an accurate representation of what happened because you said in your previous post:

"I felt the pain of the realization that this person, if she didn't make a decision to follow Christ, would spend eternity apart from me."

So, either you manipulated this girl into making a decision based on wanting to be with you, or else you misrepresented the facts. Which is it?

Joseph Botwinick
 

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Scott,

I have already told you how I show the love of Christ. You are teaching false doctrine by saying we should not focus on preaching against sin. This is the spirit of Anti-Christ. I will pray for you and hope that God will open your eyes to the truth. But, until then, I am finished discussing this with you as your heart is hard right now and you are unwilling to see the truth.

Joseph Botwinick
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Didn't say you were. It is not a matter of providing salvation. Is your life more important than the salvation of this person?
There is no connection between the two. On what scripture are you basing this philosophy and what exactly is your point? </font>[/QUOTE]We have been called to deny everything to follow CHrist. If He called you to give up your life for another's salvation, would you do it? My guess is, from your evasion, that you would not.

If by that you mean, do I go out of my way to make them feel better about their sin, then no. And neither did Jesus. If by that you mean do I treat them as friends, pray for them, and share the Gospel with them calling them to repent, then yes. And so did Jesus.
I am glad that you would call them friends. So many people would not. I don't go around making people feel better about their sins - I do go around supporting them, befriending them, listening to them, and being there for them. That, I think is Christian love.

The Holy Spirit working through the preaching of the Word of God.
I Corinthians 13 spells out specifically how successful we are in the Christian life without love.

I disagree. We live in a world where the so-called "Christian" church is all too quick to wink at sin and make people feel better about their sins while they go to Hell.
What do you mean make them feel better? How woudl you quantify this? The church in general has developed an "us-vs.-them mentality." I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a church, specifically a Baptist church, that has done that.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I am certainly glad to hear this. However, this statement contradicts yourself and shows that you didn't give an accurate representation of what happened because you said in your previous post:

"I felt the pain of the realization that this person, if she didn't make a decision to follow Christ, would spend eternity apart from me."

So, either you manipulated this girl into making a decision based on wanting to be with you, or else you misrepresented the facts. Which is it?

Joseph Botwinick [/QB]
That is what I felt. That is what Paul felt when he wrote Romans 9. That is not what she felt. That is not what led her to make the decision she made. So, neither of your choices are true.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Scott,

I have already told you how I show the love of Christ. You are teaching false doctrine by saying we should not focus on preaching against sin. This is the spirit of Anti-Christ. I will pray for you and hope that God will open your eyes to the truth. But, until then, I am finished discussing this with you as your heart is hard right now and you are unwilling to see the truth.

Joseph Botwinick
Joseph, I never said that we should not preach against sin. However, this is not our primary focus as believers. The greatest commands we have are to love God and love one another. That is our focus - Christ said so himself.

Do you always call someone an anti-Christ when you don't agree with them?

Perhaps it is not my heart that is hard here?
 
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