Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

You "drank the Koolaid!" You don't know the answer but you believe the theology that also doesn't know! Welcome to Jonestown!

"Work of your own" for instance. What was that work? BELIEVING the gospel! But Rom 4:5 says believing is NOT work! So what a free will person does is believe the gospel, obeys (which proves he/she believes), RECEIVES the GIFT of the Holy Spirit which is PROOF of God's promise and thereby also receives FAITH (substance of things beleived).

To tell the truth, "election" means nothing unless you are saved.

skypair

 

You missed somethin' there, Dale-c ------- He gave faith to them because they BELIEVED! You see, "Faith is the substance of things BELIEVED, the evidence of this not seen." Heb 11:1

So when they BELIEVED, God gave them the Holy Spirit as "substance" and "evidence" of His promise (what they "hoped for") --- then they had faith.

So what is belief? It is hope. It is something you act upon without seeing. It is like "Faith, hope, and charity but the greatest of these is charity [love]." Faith is promises that God has fulfilled --- hopes are promises that are yet future but we believe because we have relationship and faith that God keeps His promises.

This thought is going to make an uplifting thread soon! :godisgood: Think about it --- our "blessed hope" is Christ's appearing. We have not seen that yet we hope in it because God is faithful, too!

skypair

 

Amen bro Skypair, preach it! :wavey:

 

Nor does Calvinism -- but the Bible tells us. Notice how you admit your theology doesn't come from the Bible but from Calvinism.

How about this, Dale-c: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Don't believe -- don't be saved. "Secret counsels?" No, Dale, gospel -- good news. Not "hidden under a bushel" "secret counsel" but passed mouth to ear by loving Christians.

skypair

 

Read Rom 3:22, dale -- "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:..."

Or Gal 3:22 -- "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be GIVEN to them that believe."

See -- BIBLE, not Calvinism. Now you have no excuse for not knowing (or for sipping the Koolaid).

skypair

 

dale,

You yourself acknowledge God's "permissive will," right? God's permissive will allows man to have persoanl sovereignty whereby sin is constantly being created and accomplished right under God's nose! But He permits it!

Sure, it is the counsel of God's will to "allow" sin and things that aren't under His direct control/sovereignty! One of those things God "allows" is for us to choose life or death -- physical and spiritual -- in this case spiritual. And, going to the verse you cite, as those who have chosen Christ, we are predestined to a purpose by which we obtain an inheritance, here and hereafter, according to -- what do you think it is according to, dale??? According to our choices to trust and obey in this life! And does God "counsel" you?? He does if you listen to the Spirit, right? So you are "counselled by God's own will" are you not?

You are making something secret that ought not be hidden except in regards to you beforehand.

BTW, God didn't choose anyone TO believe. We choose and God foreknows of that. The is a Calvinist premise that God chooses 1) makes no sense (how do you MAKE someone believe?) and 2) is made in order to support the "superstructure" of TULIP.

skypair

 

How can you keep saying false statements like this??? You have shown from Gods Word that you have the order wrong, yet you fail to change your views, but would rather hold to such views in place of the truth. Does your doctrine mean this much to you that you would go against the clear message of the Bible?

When shown, ....and you have been shown many times, you choose to overlook these passages and never reply to them, and stay on your path of "your logic over the Bible".

Would if not be better to believe the verses you have been shown? Why play God by forcing your logic on the Bible that does not support your views?

 

"Permissive will" is just Calvinism's fancy way of avoiding "free will." It means that God is, indeed, not responsible for sin, for things that would transpire that were against His will (like Pharoah not letting His people go or mankind totally rebelling before the flood), etc. IOW, anytime man exercised his 'free will' against God, Calvinism calls it "permissive will." It's what they call in my business a "distractor" -- keeps you off the real issue.

See, that's a lie from the pit of hell even according to Calvinism! Even Calvinism says man isn't as bad as he could be --- and for the very reason that man DOES do some good things that are at odds with his "sin nature."

I know God has control of ALL consequences, ALL outcomes, even of your sins. But your theology would have God making us sin! That is blasphemy of the Spirit!!

What undermines the character of God is to teach that he delights in the condemnation of the wicked -- that God doesn't love ALL His creation and try to draw as many as possible to salvation!

Preach the gospel and let the Spirit speak.

You don't even know what the "heart" is. How do you know God Himself has to change it? How would you know what is involved?? You're spouting "moral platitudes" that truly mean nothing to you! How COULD you possibly know how God turns the elect into believers??

God? Through what "instrument?" What does God find in man which "permits" Him to change man?? Because, indeed, man is unchanged if his mind, emotions, and will are not altered, wouldn't you agree?

Let me bind up your scurilous accusations of my paradigm of a less sovereign God with this --- God is no less nor more sovereign whether we call His limitations God-centered "permissive will" or whether we call them man-centered "free will." In both, God chooses where He will limit Himself in order that men might 1) be like Him in eternity and 2) freely choose him in this present age.

skypair

 

As if you pretend that your doctrine ISN'T adverse to scripture, right? Don't "play the Pharisee" with me. You have "developed" your own antidote to Bible truth called Calvinism. When I present one interpretation of scripture, you have the coinciding Calvinist opposite to offer to where we aren't talking about scrupture anymore --- we're talking about the character of God Himself!! And I find that the character of your god closely resembles the Greek god of "Fate." You neither know what God is doing nor do you believe there is anything that YOU can DO about it.

Of course, I invite you to disprove that statement by showing me that you KNOW the "secret counsel of God" regarding whether He "elected" you (course, it wouldn't be "secret" if you did know it, would it?). Then you can explain to me what YOU yourself can do/have done to alter the course of "fate."

This is just another scurrilous ad homenim on your part. I make it a point to give my understanding of whatever scripture is presented. But go ahead and make yourself "look good" at my expense.

I do believe them ---- just not as interpretted for me by Calvinism.

skypair

 

...or maybe they have been responded to so many times, there is no reason to keep doing so? Has nothing to do with "overlooking" those passages, but disagreeing on the application of them. See, it's these kind of debates that makes me mad. Nothing but strawmen and ad hominem's.

 

You know, there are calvinists with whom I disagree, but I deeply respect them and together we work to share the Gospel.

Our views differ, our goal is the same - to glorify God by sharing the Gospel with a lost and dying world.

To a degree, it matters not whether I believe some are elect and others are not. Their foreheads are not marked, they are not card-carrying elected individuals. Our responsibility is to give the Gospel out to all and leave the rest to the Lord.

I believe there are dangers latent in Calvinism but there are also dangers in the opposite view.

But what really, really gets me is the pride that eminates from some calvinist posters! The OP in this thread is one such post. It turns my stomach to see such pride.

As some one has already noted: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

This sounds like double speake to me. It's His plan but it's our choice to sin. You just contradicted yourself.

Not even one person who wasn't saved ever helped anyone else? No one ever loved any one else? Ever died for anyone else selflessly? No unsaved man ever showed mercy on anyone else?
These are all things you claim the natural man is unable to do because, of the mans sinfullness.
The truth is as plain as the nose on your face. Men have choices as to do good or not and only the blind can't see this fact.
MB