How Bad can one be IN the kingdom of heaven?

[DHK]

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."
Bob

The topic here is the Kingdom of Heaven, no?
These verses are speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, often referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven. Those that endure the Great Tribulation, that make it through those seven years without being killed, will be physically saved. It is not speaking of spiritual salvation here. You have taken these verses out of context.

At the end of the tribulation one may note that there still will be a great number of unsaved people that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven or the Millennial Kingdom. These unsaved will beget unsaved. Not all will come to Christ, even though Christ will rule with a rod of iron, and there will be perfect justice.
In fact there will be so many that will not be saved that:

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

By the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, there will be so many unsaved that Satan will lead them into one last uprising against Christ but they will all be devoured by fire sent down from God. Many, many will not be saved in the Kingdom of God, the Millennial Kingdom; they will rebel, and God will devour them with fire. After that they will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You have to change the actual wording and spiritualize it to make Matthew 5:19 mean what you interpret below. Christ uses personal pronouns not plural generic or neuter descriptives. The same "kingdom of heaven" in verse 19 is found in verse 20. There is no contrast between OUTER darkness and INWARD kingdom existence but between "least" and "greatest" "IN" the same kingdom. You have to either reject what Jesus says here or spiritualize it in such a degree so that his words mean nothing.

I think I take issue here if I am understanding you. First no one is cast out in those passages although in actuality they are. The kingdom spoken here is not limited to heaven. God's kingdom is an idiom for His entire rule. he even rules hell (outer darkness). In the case of the matt passage the Lord is saying that those who practice sinning (present tense) and lead others in like actions will be in a place where those who are lest go, outer darkness. The comparison of least and greater is not two individuals or even two groups being compared. It is two places being compared with one being the greater and the other being the lessor each populated with its own type of people. Next the Lord is not suggesting that the actions of either sent them to their respective places, but that their actions does identify as to the fact that they belong there. They are there because they either came to faith or did not, and their actions give evidence as to their faith or lack there of. In other words how they lived proved that thier final home is the place that they belong.

I am not inclined to hold that view. Here is the reason. John is dealing with Gnosticism. Part of their belief, and they had many false beliefs, was that the flesh was evil and the spirit was good and the two could not influence the other. So in their belief they did no sin since their spirit was good and anything that was of the flesh would not be sin applied to them because it was the flesh that did it and not the spirit. They claimed to be right with God, but outwardly lived in sin. In 1John 3 the writer is giving the church a way to identify those who are are saved and those who are not so that the church did not openly invite these false believers into the community of believers only to be lead away themselves with false teachings.

I understand the gnostic influence completely. However, he is not talking about gnosticism but about the nature of the new birth. The same John defines exactly what aspect of human nature is born of the Spirit in John 3:6 and it is not the human body nor the soul of man. In Romans 7:15-25 note the use of "I" in distinction to the "body" and "the inward man". It is the "inward man" that is born of God and delights in the law of God. The conscious self "I" has not been born of God but the governing disposition has been altered by the new birth.

The passage in 1John 3:9 is present tense continual action and needs to word "practice" to properly understand the passage.

It only needs "practice" to properly understand your particular interpretation is what you want enforced upon the text. The present tense is capable of expressing many other ideas. I believe he is describing the quality of new birth rather than dealing with a gnostic view. He has already denied gnosticism in 1 John 1:8-10.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."
Bob

The topic here is the Kingdom of Heaven, no?
These verses are speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, often referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven. Those that endure the Great Tribulation, that make it through those seven years without being killed, will be physically saved. It is not speaking of spiritual salvation here. You have taken these verses out of context.

Actually I am accepting the verses as they read - saved is in fact "saved".

You have eisegeted into them some story about the MK having unsaved saved people in it during the 1000 years. Totally without Bible evidence.

At the end of the tribulation one may note that there still will be a great number of unsaved people that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven or the Millennial Kingdom.

There is not ONE single "unsaved people enter the kingdom of heaven" statement in all of scripture!

No not one.

But what we do have is that "The dead in Christ rise FIRST" in 1Thess 4 and the "FIRST resurrection" is the one John describes in Rev 20:4-5 at the Rev 19 "coming of Christ" event promised in John 14:1-3 "I will come again".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."
Bob

Actually I am accepting the verses as they read - saved is in fact "saved".

Noah was saved from the flood waters.
Lot was saved from the fire and brimstone that fell upon Sodom, but his wife was not.
Goliath was not saved from the hand of David.
However, Saul was saved from the hand of David.

I read the verses also, just as they are written. The word "saved," means "saved," but not in the context you put it in. You twist the Scripture to make it mean what you want it to mean.

You have eisegeted into them some story about the MK having unsaved saved people in it during the 1000 years. Totally without Bible evidence.

Read the context for yourself.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13)
--In this context it is just before the middle of the tribulation. How do we know?
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand (Matthew 24:15)
--This is what happens in the middle of the tribulation. The antichrist breaks his covenant with the Jews, and desecrates the Temple. That puts the verse in context of the Tribulation. Not all in the Tribulation will be killed. Where is your evidence for that?

After that event happens, Jesus gives this warning:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

Then at the very end of the Tribulation:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)
--Christ comes with power and great glory.

He will defeat the enemies of the Jews; the nations that have risen up against them. But nowhere does it say that all in the world will be decimated. That is you reading into the Scriptures that which is not there. There will be some after that that will enter into His Kingdom which He will set up right after His coming.

There is not ONE single "unsaved people enter the kingdom of heaven" statement in all of scripture!

The judgment of the sheep and the goats takes place right at the beginning of the MK.

But what we do have is that "The dead in Christ rise FIRST" in 1Thess 4 and the "FIRST resurrection" is the one John describes in Rev 20:4-5 at the Rev 19 "coming of Christ" event promised in John 14:1-3 "I will come again".

in Christ,

Bob

The Scripture you referred speaks of the rapture which takes place before the Tribulation, which the believers are spared. Concerning the saints, the Bible states: "For we are not appointed unto wrath."

 

[BobRyan]

These verses say nothing about "a millennial kingdom on earth" where the "wicked try to be good".

They speak to the subject of salvation itself, perseverance of the saints, enduring firm until the end.

The special form of Calvinism that teaches that wicked-as-you-like you "enter heaven" not only denies the 3 and 5 Point Calvinist view of perseverance - it also denies the Bible teaching on perseverance of the saints as seen below.

In Rom 6 Paul asks if we should sin becuse we are not under law - but under grace .. the answer is that IF you do present youself as a slave to sin you are no longer of Christ.

Turns out a lot of the rest of the Bible agrees with Romans 6 on that point.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.



Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."