How Calvinistic Are You?

Did Samson persevere ? How about Lot, or Noah. Is there any record in the Bible that Rahab the Harlot persevered ? Are we absolutely, definitely, 100% sure that ALL the New Testament saints, including the Apostles, persevered in their belief and faith ?

 

The Bible says that you have been reconciled (i.e., saved) if you continue in the faith (Col 1:22-24). It says that "we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Heb 3:14). Therefore, what I said is completely scriptural and if you don't believe it, then you are not scriptural. Period. You can align your beliefs with the Bible or believe falsely. THose are the only two options.

It is clear that we do not always know the state of a person's life. Pinoybaptist in an effort to disprove the point actually proves it. Samson appears to have repented and returned at the end of his life. Lot is called a righteous man by Peter, so it is clear that he repented. Noah is listed in Heb 11 as a man of great faith, so it is clear that he died in faith. Rahab the harlot is also recognized in Heb 11. And we can be sure that all the NT saints persevered in their belief and faith. How can we be sure? Because Scripture teaches that saints persevere.

It doesn't "boil down to the sinner's perseverance." It boils down to God's promise of sanctification. God is the one bringing it about.

This is a place where many like to replace Scripture with theology for personal reasons. IT is unfortunate. Paul made no bones about it in 2 Cor 13: Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?

Ray's attempt at proving the biblical position fails because none of the examples he lists are actual examples of a believer who failed to persevere. We need only read the context to see how much Ray is assuming on that. We need only to read the Scriptures and believe what they say.

 

It is interesting that many conservative Baptists believe that their election is because they are in Christ---that Christ Himself is the elected One and, therefore, they are elected. Karl Barth would be proud to have such a following.

How Calvinistic am I? Put me in the same room with C. H. Spurgeon, Particular Baptists such as Benjamin Keach, James P. Boyce, P. H. Mell, Benjamin and Nehemiah Cox, Hansard Knollys, as well as contemporaries such as John Piper, Alistair Begg, and John MacArthur, those who see Calvin's understanding of soteriology as merely the systematizing of what the apostle Paul wrote.

I used to chafe at Calvinistic soteriology. However, as I began to preach through books of the Bible, I found myself contorting Scriptures in my attempt to refute God's sovereignty in individual salvation. I realize that now some may charge that I contort the Scriptures to support Calvinism, but be aware that my Judge is God alone. We all, especially those of us who stand before the congregation each week, must be aware that it is God's Word we are handling, and we should do so with the utmost care.

BTW, it's easy to flame others when their views do not line up with ours. None of us understands everything with perfect precision and clarity. The Scriptures alone are our authority, and they alone must guide our understanding.

Bill

 

Have you calvinist preachers ever wondered about those whom you thought were such staunch believers and solid workers that are no longer believers? Do you think for one minute that they did not at one time believe as staunchly as you yourselves do? Do you think for one minute that they did not lose their faith in God?

I know dozens of people even former pastors who are no longer believers in the Christ, who truly were committed for significant periods of time, who through some deception have indeed lost there faith.

You are quite simply blind to the truth!

 

Pastor Larry said,

Larry, is think if you reread my post you will find Demas, Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander are proper names and more than enough that you require. I said previously: ‘Examples off the top of my head . . . Demas and Hymenaeus and Philetus [II Timothy 2:17-21] Those Christians who become as ‘wood and earth’ are those who dishonor the Lord, which is hardly persevering in the true faith of Jesus.

Also, Christians who are saved ‘by the skin of the teeth’ (so as by fire; at the Judgment Seat of Christ)

Also, I Timothy 1:19-20 indicates that Hymenaeus and Alexander made shipwreck of their faith and even ‘blasphemed’ the Triune God, so much so that the Lord gave them up to Satan to discipline them as saved men. The Greek word for {learn} is (paidouthosin) meaning ‘to train as a child in chastisement/punishment.’ This is at the other end of persevering in the faith, which makes God’s Word right and the Westminster Confession of Faith and Calvinism wrong. It does, however, affirm the eternal security of the believer. [John 10:28-30; I Corinthians 6:17,20 & I John 5:13,18] The evil one/Devil cannot get a grip on the saved soul. [vs. 18]

A PERSON CANNOT MAKE SHIPWRECK OF THEIR FAITH IF THEY DID NOT FIRST HAVE BEEN IN THE FAITH OF JESUS; PLUS, THE LORD DOES NOT DISCIPLE/CHASTISE SINNERS, ONLY THE PEOPLE OF GOD AS SAYS HEBREWS CHAPTER TWELVE. It is time to take off you Calvinistic theological lenses so you can see the reality of truth.

With you spiritually sighted myopia please explain what quality of Christians are portrayed in II Timothy 2:20.

 

Faith is not our choice.
We believe not from choosing but experiencing God through the revelation of the Spirit of His love for us as demonstrated by the cross of Christ. This it is nothing we made up our mind about so that we might unmake it but rather a truth we have experienced we know deeper than the intellect allows, even unto our spirit. if one only holds the Gospel truth in their mind and it is not in their heart as well, they are not saved and hence yes they could unmake up their mind and unless God does save them they will unmake up their mind. But they were never saved fom the get go.

 

I don't dispute that they are proper names of actual people. But they are not examples of true believers who did not persevere. There is no reason to call the true believers, based on what the text says. 1 Tim 1 doesn't say they were given to Satan to discipline as saved men. You added that in to support yrou doctrine.

A person makes shipwreck of the faith by professing and turning away. I have given clear passages that support my position. You have given none that support yours apart from the presupposition.

2 Tim 2:20 refers to kinds of vessels, which Paul uses as a teaching point about the kinds of lives Christians should have. He does not admit the possibility of Christians who do not persevere.

I have noticed that you have not dealt with the Scripture I gave. I am not surprised, having been here long enough to know that you will simply ignore Scripture that doesn't go your way. However, those passages are clear and they are what I said at the beginning. That is Bible truth.

 

Yes, why?

Yes.

Yes.

But if they do not persevere, then it was not true saving faith. That is a simple Bible teaching giving in numerous passages of which I cited three and you ignored all three. The fact of the matter is that I do not know about the spiritual condition of people who fall away. They may be truly saved and experiencing the conviction of the Spirit. They may one day return and show their faith to be genuine. They may not return. We will not know until we get to heaven.

How is believing what Scripture says being blind to the truth? That is certainly a strange definition of blind or of truth. I am not sure which. But I will gladly be blind to the truth if the alternative is denying what Scripture says to be true.

[ January 07, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Can persons appear to be true believers for even a long period of time and finally be revealed as unbelievers? Of course. 1 John 2:18, 19: Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Those who die outside of faith in Christ perish eternally, and those who are true believers will persevere. Those who do not persevere reveal that they were never true believers (Matt 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19). It is not our holding onto God---it is His holding onto us. He has sealed true believers for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13; 4:30). It's all about grace, not works.

Bill

 

Those outside of the faith are called, ‘children of disobedience’ and ‘children of wrath’ [Ephesians 2:2-3] and those who ‘practice sinning are of the Devil.’ [I John 3:8a]

If Hymenaeus and Alexander did not have ‘the faith’ [I Timothy 1:19] (check the Greek), they never could have made shipwreck of their faith. [vs. 19]

Even Matthew Henry says, ‘Observe, the primary design of the highest censure in the primitive church was to prevent further sin . . .’ Volume VI, p. 811. He also says as to I Cor. 5:5, ‘In this case it was for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.’ This young man who had committed fornication with his mother [I Cor. 5:1] was later restored to the church and fellowship with Christ because Paul told the church to love, care, and nurture him. [II Cor. 2:7-8]

Also, I Corinthians 11:30-32 we find Christians who had backslidden and some so badly that the Lord took them to Heaven prematurely, because of their refusal to repent and amend their sinful ways.

In the cases of ‘those who slept’ (death) and I believe I am right than there is no record of Hymenaeus or Alexander ever returning to ‘the faith.’ Here in I Cor. 11 and I Timothy 1:19 and plus Demas are situations where they never returned to the fellowship of the church. I believe Demas [II Timothy 4:10] was a backslider, like many today, who focus on wealth rather than being devoted to the Lord. Demas was a true servant of God until he avoided continuing in the ministry. The reason, the Apostle Paul says, was because he ‘loved this present world.’

I am sure Pastor Larry, if you were not tied to a creed or set of church doctrines you would affirm what I have written in these few sentences. Those persons in paragraph five are not examples of perseverance until the end of their lives.

Wood and earthen vessels are dishonorable Christians who never return to fellowship with the Lord. [II Timothy 2:20]

 

Ray,

Surely you're not questioning Larry's integrity. To charge a person, who doesn't see the Scriptures as supporting your point of view, with being "tied to a creed or a set of church doctrines" strikes me as a bit arrogant. Folks can honestly disgree about how the Scriptures are interpreted. While there is only one correct interpretation, none of us happens to be infallible. I suspect all of us will find more of our doctrine needing correcting when we stand in His presence than we could anticipate.

Having said that, we should be motivated to search the Scriptures to make sure that even our most cherished understandings are correct.

Bill

 

1 Cor 5:5 that you reference is the only possible reference to a situation like you describe. And it is likely that he repented. 1 Cor 11:30-32 is a great example supporting this point. They sinned unto death. They were not turned over to Satan. There is absolutely no evidence that Hymanaus and Alexander were truly saved. It is likely that they, like many others, believed in vain and did not have true salvation.

As with so many things, you are surely wrong. I am not tied to a creed or a set of "church doctrines." I have never read Westminster. I am tied to Scripture which is why I support what I have said with Scripture.

You keep reading into Scripture to make it say what you would like it to say. You did exactly that with 2 Tim 2:20. Paul did not say they were dishonorable Christians. You know that. But why add to Scripture? Why not just abandon your doctrine and believe hte Bible?

Why not deal with Col 1, Heb 3, 2 Cor 13, 1 John 2, and the host of other passages that explicitly refute your position?

 

Everything you believe is a matter of choice bygrace4012. You cannot believe until you choose to believe. No, it is not a mechanical thing, it is very subtle in the way it happens. But you remain the one who must choose what you believe.

 

IF, as scriptures say, at the time you believed you were saved, then it is the same for each and all who come to believe, even if they subsequently fall away, while you do not! They were just as saved as you, but they lost their faith for whatever reason, and if they die from this natural life lacking faith in God, they will be cast into the lake of fire the same as if they had never had faith at any time in their natural life. The only one who holds true to his promises is God (father, son, and Holy Spirit} .

No Larry believing what the scriptures say is not blind to the truth. What you are blind to is the actual application of the truth of scripture!

 

In Bible College I had a good Calvinistic friend, Gary Rodgers from near Albany, N.Y. who would disagree with you in your above statement. The implication is as clear as crystal. You are beginning to sound like an Arminian in your interpretation here. I can believe this because I see in Scripture the security of the believer. Sorry you are not allowed in your conscience/mind and heart to believe the truth.

 

[/b]You completely miss the point. If you fall away, your faith was not true saving faith. It is not a matter of having true saving faith and then losing it. The Bible teaches that true saving faith perseveres. If they "subsequently fall away," then it was not true faith.

Not at all. You won't even deal with the passages that clearly refute you. I know very well the application of Scripture.

 

How can he disagree with it? Paul did not say that they were dishonorable Christians, whatever the implications might be. What I have said is that you read into Scripture to promote your own theology. Paul talks about dishonorable vessels. He does not say what those vessels are.

You should be sorry for not telling the truth. I do believe in the security of the believer and in the truth of Scripture. Don't accuse me otherwise. The point is about what 2 Tim 2 actually says, not what you think it means.

BTW, I don't disagree that there are dishonorable Christians. THat was never the point. The poitn of Scripture is that true believers persevere finally. They do not finally fall away. We all have some dishonor in our lives. It is called sin. We might even live in it for an extended period of time. But true believers repent and return.

As I have pointed out, we have no way of knowing that on this earth. We will find out when we get in heaven. BUt don't let your experience be your guide. Don't allow your warm affections for friends or others who may have fallen away (at least apparently) to cloud your interpretation of Scripture.

And I notice you still haven't dealt with the texts I have given. Why? Are you scared of them?

 

Jesus said in John 3:16 that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." Believeth means "is believing" Therefore as long as one "is believing", that one should not perish but have everlasting life. However, if the one who "is believing", stops believing, he condemns himself to death. Jesus does not define it as True Saving Faith, only as "is believing". That is why when Jesus started talking about eating his flesh, so many that did not understand, stopped believing and following Jesus, they fell away because they did not comprehend what Jesus was saying. Thus it is with many believers, after they have satiated themselves on the milk of the word and start getting into the meat, they lose the "is believing" condition and take on the did believe but no more condition. While they was in the "is believing" condition, they were just as saved as you believe you are. But now that they have stopped believing they are no longer in the condition necessary for salvation.
That will happen in great numbers when the great deception takes place.

 

Pastor Larry,

If I were arguing for the fifth point of Arminianism I would be using your words,

Now you sound like a lawyer who is out of the limb and is cutting off the branch nearest the trunk. God hides few secrets from His servants who are men and women of God, neither does He waste words.

Your view as to what God is saying is that He has in His kingdom/‘a great house’ only ‘vessels of gold and of silver,’ [II Timothy 2:20] only like men as typified in vs. 21. The man in said verse is spoken of as ‘a vessel unto honor.’ Now can you figure out who the other vessels really are in this passage? Just maybe, men and women of ‘dishonor.’ [vs. 20d] This is not like futuristic Air Force secrets.