How Calvinistic Are You?

Samson, you say, appears to have repented and returned at the end of his life ; Lot, according to you, is a righteous man, because he repented. The problem with the former statement is that you assume something which the Bible does not teach. On the other hand, reading Samson's story through, it is apparent he has always been self-centered, even unto death. Look at his prayer carefully before he brought down the two pillars on the Philistines.
The problem with the latter is: how is a man made righteous, in the eternal sense. Because he repented ?
You insinuate on my motives, yet all I am really saying is that the Bible teaches the elect child of God is preserved in Christ ! Check out Jude 1:1, on the other hand, the word persevere in connection with the saints is not written in the Bible ! There is the word 'perseverance' in Ephesians 6:18 and it is used in connection with prayer and watching.

Furthermore, the use of the word 'believer' limits the election of God and shortens His hand only to those who have heard and believed the gospel, and election goes far beyond that.

Consider the verse:

These are non-believers . Enemies of the good news of God's provided salvation, that God is the One who chose to be merciful and chose to whom be merciful, and sent His Only Son for those whom He loved.

How will they comply with your requirement that in order for them to get to heaven, they prove themselves true believers by persevering ?

 

Ray,

Surely you're not questioning Larry's integrity. To charge a person, who doesn't see the Scriptures as supporting your point of view, with being "tied to a creed or a set of church doctrines" strikes me as a bit arrogant. Folks can honestly disgree about how the Scriptures are interpreted. While there is only one correct interpretation, none of us happens to be infallible. I suspect all of us will find more of our doctrine needing correcting when we stand in His presence than we could anticipate.

Having said that, we should be motivated to search the Scriptures to make sure that even our most cherished understandings are correct.

Bill </font>[/QUOTE]I totally agree. We are all still feeble beings and will not know everything on this earth and should treat others accordingly.
I do however have a big problem with those that try to say that their own work of faith has saved them and they can come and go as they please.

I take that as an affront to the sufficiency of the sacrifice of our Holy God. I do however find it to be consistant with the belief that Salvation starts with mans decision. If man decides, why can't man then get out of it?
I can fellowship with a lot of people that I don't agree with and I know that in heaven I will find out that I am wrong as well...but Wes, your salvation of works just doesn't cut it. you will probably be offended that I call it works but it is just that. You believe that God is a respoctor of persons and that he has saved you because you are better "smarter" than the ones that haven't "chosen" to believe.
I don't see how there is much to discuss with you as long as you have not even come to the point of believing your own depravity.

 

How Calvinist am I? Not at all...though I used to be. To me it seems illogical and blasphemous. If God is "Calvinist" then He is responsible for man's sin.

It can't go both ways. Either we have free will and are responsible for our own sin or we don't have free will and God is responsible for it.

I can go on and on, back and forth, but this in a nutshell is why I am not a Calvinist.

 

DALE SAID,

Dale, you must be reading someone elses posts thinking them to be mine. I have never professed a works salvation, except the finished work of God! And I have never stated anywhere on this or any other BBS that God is a respecter of persons. If you can find such a post of mine anywhere on this BBS where I have made either a declaration of Salvation by Works, or that God is a respecter of persons, Please copy it and post it right here on this topic where you make your false statements.

A thousand times a thousand times I have declared that man's salvation is a free gift of God given ONLY TO those who have FAITH ALONE, IN GOD!

If you do not believe that human FAITH in God is a personal, individual, unique, choice of the individual, YOU are welcome to prove otherwise! You must prove how you can give even one iota of your faith to another, or receive from another one iota of his faith. If man can do that, then you may convince me that God can do that! We are made in the image of God!

If you can prove God's grace is able to save any man, then you may be able to convince me that
we are truly saved by grace! However the King James bible that I read says that while God is behaving toward man with Grace, that we men are saved through FAITH, and that our salvation is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God, not by any works that we may do so that NO one has anything to boast about. It further says, OUR faith cometh by hearing (taking into our minds), and that Hearing is by the word of God (the word of God is absorbed into our minds and becomes the knowledge by which our spirit is persuaded to possess faith) And it is that possession of faith through which we are saved! Prove to me that faith is a work, and you may be able to convince me you are right!

My God don't make no junk! Man is not totally depraved! Man may be off course and lost, but he is still made in the image of God. Now if you want to call the image of God depraved and junk! that's up to you, but it certainly demonstrates your opinion of God who made us in His image.

Yes, I am a sinner, saved through faith in God! I do the faithing God does the Saving!

 

Maybe you will settle for 'wiser.' Were Wes and I unwise because we received Christ? [John 1:12] Were we unwise to receive the promised gift of Ephesians 2:8? I think you will agree that we were wiser than the wilful sinner.

Although I am a non-Catholic Christian I agree there is some truth to their (Roman Catholic)Canon V of their Authorative Statements of Doctrine.

'If any one saith that since Adam's sin, the free-will of man is lost and extinguished; or that it is a thing with only a name, ye a name without a reality, a figment in fine introduced into the world by Satan; let him be anathema.'

Also, the Remonstrant Doctrine says this. 'Secondly, so that grace may be judged to have of itself sufficient power to produce consent in the will, but because this power is partial, it can not go out in act without the co-operation of the human free will, and hence, that it may have effect, it depends on free-will.

Taken from "Outlines of Theology" by A.A. Hodge, D.D., Thomas Nelson and Sons, London, p. 454. This text was written in 1883. Dr. Hodge was merely reflecting the theology of Roman Catholicism and non-Catholics who believe in the Biblical reality of person to guide his or her life in relation to eternal issues. He himself was a Calvinist.

I may not be smart but I would rather look to His mercy at the Judgment Seat of Christ, than to explain my life before the Divine tribunal of the Great White Throne Judgment.

But then some of you have not yet figured out that these judgments are separate and the Lord deals with Christians at the first one and sinners at the White Throne Judgment.

 

Now you sound like a lawyer who is out of the limb and is cutting off the branch nearest the trunk. God hides few secrets from His servants who are men and women of God, neither does He waste words.

Your view as to what God is saying is that He has in His kingdom/‘a great house’ only ‘vessels of gold and of silver,’ [II Timothy 2:20] only like men as typified in vs. 21. The man in said verse is spoken of as ‘a vessel unto honor.’ Now can you figure out who the other vessels really are in this passage? Just maybe, men and women of ‘dishonor.’ [vs. 20d] This is not like futuristic Air Force secrets. </font>[/QUOTE]Ray, There is nothing in the text that says that that dishonorable vessels are christians who never repent. You do not know the outcome of the end of their lives. You make speculations that you need to support your position. Not needing to support your position, I don't have to read into the text.

I notice you still haven't dealt with the passages I listed that clearly refute you. Why? Are you that scared of them?

 

I say that because he let his hair grow back out and because he prayed to God. I also said "appeared." As I have often said, we won't know for sure until we get to heaven.

Actually, Peter said that Lot was a righteous man, and I assume that righteous men are not unrepentant sinners.

That is not under dispute. We agree on that. But the same Bible teaches that truly saved people will continue in the faith. They will not finally turn away.

Election encompasses those who believe and those who will believe. No one will be saved apart from belief. Their belief is secured because of their election. God limited it to those who have "heard and believed," and you should not broaden it for him.

These are non-believers . Enemies of the good news of God's provided salvation, that God is the One who chose to be merciful and chose to whom be merciful, and sent His Only Son for those whom He loved.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but it is in reference to those Jews who will believe in the end times. It is not a reference to unbelievers.

It is not my requirement. It is God's. And they will comply the way that Jeremiah says ... by being given a new heart.

 

Pastor Larry,

We can say the same about Calvinists speculation and presuppositions about your Five Points; that gets us nowhere. People believe what they thought was correct.

The above portion, II Timothy 2:17-21 is corroborated also in I Corinthians 3:11-15 which is the tribunal of the Judgment Seat of Christ. The ‘dishonorable’ vessels are people who have not persevered in the Christian faith, who will be ashamed at His coming. [I John 2:28] At Jesus appearing for His church, you must agree that some will not be prepared, spiritually speaking, when He comes in all of His glory.

You are not as candid as you could be when you refused to take my statements and background verses and show me where you think I am wrong. Or it might simple be that you do not have time to refute the verses and what I am saying.

Roman Catholicism at least say and believe I Corinthians three refers to Purgatory. People who believe the truth of the Word of God know that this future event will be the Judgment Seat of Christ where the inferior, good and best Christians will be evaluated for their faithfulness and ministry toward our Lord.

To my way of thinking, you have not indicated a plausible explanation as to the meaning of the ‘wood’ and ‘earthen vessels’ the ones who are not honorable, but rather dishonorable to the Lord.

Check your favorite commentaries and get back to us.

 

Ray,

You can say the same about Calvinistic theology, but you would be wrong. Calvinistic theology has been clearly shown to be the scriptural teaching, not by one or two verses out of context, but by the massive weight of the testimony of Scripture as a whiole. There is no comparison with this situation.

As for 1 Cor 3:11-15, that is not about individuals, but rather about those building churches. Again, it is not a valid comparison.

To accuse me of not being candid is ridiculous and I think you know that. You presented a number of verses that, given your presupposition, teach what you claim. But I presented clear verses that contradict your presupposition and thus show your interpretation of those verses to be wrong.

You accuse me of not giving a "plausible explanation" of 2 Tim. But how funny a comment that is since you have not even bothered to address 2 Cor 13, Col 1, Heb 3, 1 John, etc, which all clearly say you are wrong. You want to harp on an analogy Paul uses off hand, without full explanation, while ignoring hte passages that Paul, John, and others use that clearly show you to be wrong.

2 Tim is Paul using in illustration to exhort people to Christian living. In the context, he also speaks of those who need repentance to the knowledge of the truth, indicating those who need to be saved. So on that basis, we might argue that the vessels are unsaved. But even at that, it is irrelevant, for it does not say that those vessels died in that state. No one here denies that Christians may backslide and live in sin for a period of time. That would be a vessel unto dishonor, given your interpretation. But the Bible teaches that they will not continue that way, and it is those verses which you will not deal with ... for obvious reasons. They show you are wrong.

 

These are non-believers . Enemies of the good news of God's provided salvation, that God is the One who chose to be merciful and chose to whom be merciful, and sent His Only Son for those whom He loved.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but it is in reference to those Jews who will believe in the end times. It is not a reference to unbelievers.</font>[/QUOTE]Paul is not addressing an end times issue here. He is clearly stating that the Jews who Jesus came to, are his enemies because they don't believe, even though they are the elect of the FATHER! Or said another way, Jesus came to the elect and they did not believe.

 

Pastor Larry,

You mentioned II Cor. Heb. and I John. Give me the specific verse or verses and you points and I will gladly respond to your post. Hey, I might even agree with you; after all, we are depending on the same Holy Spirit for illumination.

 

Already given them several times Ray. 2 Cor 13:5ff; Heb 3:12ff; the whole book of 1 John; Col 1:22-24; 1 Cor 15:1-2; etc. There are many of these verses that explicitly teach that continuing is the result of faith and true salvation.

 

These are non-believers . Enemies of the good news of God's provided salvation, that God is the One who chose to be merciful and chose to whom be merciful, and sent His Only Son for those whom He loved.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but it is in reference to those Jews who will believe in the end times. It is not a reference to unbelievers.</font>[/QUOTE]Paul is not addressing an end times issue here. He is clearly stating that the Jews who Jesus came to, are his enemies because they don't believe, even though they are the elect of the FATHER! Or said another way, Jesus came to the elect and they did not believe. </font>[/QUOTE]You need to go back and read Roman 11. It most clearly is an end times issue for it takes place "after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in." The "fulness of hte Gentiles is the church.

 

Pastor Larry,

You said,

I agree with you that the Lord warns all of us, as His people, to continue in faith until we see His face. ‘Believing in vain’ does not mean that He withdraws His salvation but it does mean that for some, there will be no meaning to their faith. According to I John 3:9 does the Holy Spirit ever abandon the true believer? You remember, I am sure that the saved have the ‘incorruptible seed’ {the Holy Spirit} abiding in them ‘forever.’

As to ‘reprobates’ the Greek word is adokimoi meaning a counterfeit. Notice in II Cor. 13:6 God speaking through the Apostle Paul indicates that the born of the Spirit believers are not reprobates. ‘We are not reprobates.’

If God can break His covenant with those who are saved, His life in us would not be everlasting life. [John 3:16]

 

We are in the gentile era and it has not yet come to fulness, else the era would close.

You will also note that each of the Apostles thought of 'their' time, 1st century AD, as the end time, when in reality their time was only the beginning of the time of the gentiles which we are still in.

I hope that you will agree we are still in the church age. I further hope you will agree that 'fullness' means the next stage is 'overflow'. The time of the gentiles is still in the filling stage, though the signs are appearing that fullness is drawing near.

 

I believe that Scripture teaches the Sovereignty of God in Salvation but I believe that the name Calvinism to express this doctrine biases people against it.

 

OldRegular,
You'd be right and that is why I disown both Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

All 5-points of the Augustine-Calvin philosophy are false.

 

Well, You've said it, now support it!