How can free will destroy faith in Christ?

[MB]

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” Acts 16:14 (KJV 1900)
Compare to the Pharisees whom God hardened their hearts so the could not believe.

Lydia was already a believer. Notice that God opened her heart so that she attended to the things spoken of Paul. Those things was her baptism.

Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
This was not her Salvation She was already saved. Her being saved was not what her heart being opened was for. Salvation wasn't even mentioned.


The Pharisee's were convinced of them selves. They were the Guys who argued with just about everyone. They believed them selves to be better than everyone else religiously. They really were the hypocrites of there day. They pretended to be more knowledgeable than any other sect of the Jews when in reality they only pretended to believe in God. There main concern was appearance to others
MB

 

[MB]

Perhaps it would be better to present that free will existed other than in the Christ and in believers,

The OT uses free will in the title of offerings. It does not suggest that folks had free will, but made free will sacrifices.

It was customary for folks to offer life sacrificially as some appeal for health and wealth. Such is documented cross culturally in every place.

The Lord pointed out such sacrifice was scarce even for a friend, much less for an enemy combatant.


Another OT presentation considers the volunteer aspect for some mission. Again that is not presented as one incapable actually attaining, but service.

So, when the Scriptures use the words “free will” (exception- Christ and believers) it is in service not in accepting or attaining unless it is in hope of personal gain.

Do you find something different?

It Stands to reason if man can give a freewill offering then man has to have freewill to do it. You only ignore this fact because you reject the truth of it. Man would never get anything done in this world with out the will to do it. The free will
MB

 

[MB]

Just sayin' nobody wants God in truth unless first born again.

Sorry Dave but this isn't true. When I was saved I wanted to be. The reason was because of my inability to resist sin. I was worried that I wouldn't be and I'd be left in my sins where I didn't want to be.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

The point of this thread is that it is inconsistent to hold that faith is a gift and that free will destroys faith.

 

[MB]

Even if Eph 2:8 was speaking of a gift of faith. One verse does not support it. Salvation is the Gift and scripture supports it. The Bible says it takes two or three witnesses to establish.
Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Here Calvinism fails to support faith as a Gift.
MB

 

[agedman]

It Stands to reason if man can give a freewill offering then man has to have freewill to do it. You only ignore this fact because you reject the truth of it. Man would never get anything done in this world with out the will to do it. The free will
MB

Calling an offering a "free will" does not oblige that the person have a free will any more than the internal revenue service attends to gathering stomach contents.

I enjoyed reading your short testimony to Dave.

 

[MB]

Calling an offering a "free will" does not oblige that the person have a free will any more than the internal revenue service attends to gathering stomach contents.

I enjoyed reading your short testimony to Dave.

Says you! No proof you just make false claims No where do I see any proof. What makes you think you alone are believable. You are allowed to have a private view it's your freewill to have but just because it's your view doesn't make it the truth.
MB

 

[agedman]

Says you! No proof you just make false claims No where do I see any proof. What makes you think you alone are believable. You are allowed to have a private view it's your freewill to have but just because it's your view doesn't make it the truth.
MB

You definitely would have a good point, except how the words are used cannot be taken and applied to the personal life.

For example:
In Leviticus 22:

20You shall not offer anything that has a blemish, for it will not be acceptable for you. 21And when anyone offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.22Animals blind or disabled or mutilated or having a discharge or an itch or scabs you shall not offer to the LORD or give them to the LORD as a food offering on the altar. 23You may present a bull or a lamb that has a part too long or too short for a freewill offering, but for a vow offering it cannot be accepted. 24Any animal that has its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut you shall not offer to the LORD; you shall not do it within your land, 25neither shall you offer as the bread of your God any such animals gotten from a foreigner. Since there is a blemish in them, because of their mutilation, they will not be accepted for you.”​

The principle of the offering is that it was to be perfect.

When one applies that OT principle to the human heart, knowing the Scripture states that the heart is desperately wicked, how then is such capable of its own free will sufficiently pure to be offered acceptable to God.

The Scriptures are consistent in this matter.

It really isn't just my false claim.

Having shown from Scripture the principle proof, perhaps you can offer something from Scriptures that might modify the presentation?

 

[Dave G]

So the other threads are in error?

I'm answering your quote below / here:

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

To which I agreed with your statement.

As for the other threads, I stand by the statements that I made in those.
My responses in the other threads were to comments made by those who offered objections to what you call "Calvinism" in those threads...
not specifically to the OP in each case.

My apologies for not answering every thread strictly according to the OP.
As is normal on this forum, people often answer posts within the thread that pertain to comments in the post, and "rabbit trails" tend to form.

That is what happened when I answered in those previous threads.

I dont know anyone who believes that.

I know many people who think that God frees the will of all men to believe on Christ when the Gospel is preached.

Again, as in other threads...
I often see that characterized as "Prevenient Grace", and I see nowhere in God's word that it is declared.

 

[agedman]

If it were true that faith is a gift from God, and one cannot lose their faith, then how is it that free will could destroy said faith in Christ?

Now the statement "Free will destroys faith in Christ" implies:

1. That one has faith in Christ
2. but loses it to do a belief in free will.

Does this mean that those who believe that faith is a direct gift from God also believe that free will of man is pore powerful than the gift God gave?

Those things do not line up.

As you pointed, above, but I don't see it being discussed on the thread, yet.

Do you present that prevenient or preceding grace, which foundationally expresses that God lifts the person into such a state in which they may freely choose, would also be removed from the person so that rejection could not be effected?

So, God grants free will ability and then takes it away?

How do you see that working as free will not destroying the faith in Christ?

Ultimately, I don't see the security of the believer accurately taught if faith is:
1) not a gift of God
2) dependant upon the human acceptance
3) dependant upon a temporary grace
4) held by the will of the human and whims of the human.


Your thoughts?

 

[Dave G]

Even if Eph 2:8 was speaking of a gift of faith. One verse does not support it.

It's not built on one verse...
It's built on many.

What I will say at this point, MB, is that I admire your insistence that two or three witnesses are needed.
To me, one should never build a doctrine on what one verse says, or, God forbid, what it implies.
So, I'd like to submit what I see as a few of those witnesses:

1) Hebrews 12:2.
Faith is authored and finished by Jesus Christ.
Anyone who believes this literally, will see that true faith, often referred to as "saving faith", originates with God, not with men.

2) The Bible often refers to faith in Christ as the faith "of" Christ.
Similar to the phrase, "Saul of Tarsus", where Saul was from Tarsus, "of" means "by or from".
Verses that prove that faith comes from Christ are as follows:

Romans 3:22
Galatians 2:16.
Galatians 2:20.
Galatians 3:22.
Philippians 3:9

True faith is from Jesus Christ.

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:2.
Not all men have faith.
Why not?

Because it has not been given to them by God the Father ( in the behalf of Christ ) to believe on Him ( Philippians 1:29 ).

4) Jude 1:3.
True faith, described in God's word as THE faith, is delivered to the saints...
not to all men indiscriminately.

5) Galatians 5:22-23.
"Saving" faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
It is not present in someone who is not born again.

6) Hebrews 11:1.
"Saving faith" is the substance of "things hoped for"...eternal life with Jesus Christ.
It is the evidence of "things not seen"...God's miraculous work in a person.

It manifests itself in someone who believes on Christ through His word, survives life's trials of faith, and that person endures in their faith to the end of their lives...
No matter what happens to them.

Men like Steven who preached truth to the Pharisees, and was stoned for it.
Men like James who was put to death by the sword.
Men like John the Baptist who was beheaded for it.
Men like William Tyndale who was strangled publicly, and then his body burned at the stake, crying out to the Lord to "open the King of England's eyes".

There are many more examples of what true faith endures that can be found in God's word, as well as Foxe's Book of Martyrs, if you'd like to read it.



I hope that helps, sir.

 

[MB]

You definitely would have a good point, except how the words are used cannot be taken and applied to the personal life.

For example:
In Leviticus 22:

20You shall not offer anything that has a blemish, for it will not be acceptable for you. 21And when anyone offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.22Animals blind or disabled or mutilated or having a discharge or an itch or scabs you shall not offer to the LORD or give them to the LORD as a food offering on the altar. 23You may present a bull or a lamb that has a part too long or too short for a freewill offering, but for a vow offering it cannot be accepted. 24Any animal that has its testicles bruised or crushed or torn or cut you shall not offer to the LORD; you shall not do it within your land, 25neither shall you offer as the bread of your God any such animals gotten from a foreigner. Since there is a blemish in them, because of their mutilation, they will not be accepted for you.”​

The principle of the offering is that it was to be perfect.

When one applies that OT principle to the human heart, knowing the Scripture states that the heart is desperately wicked, how then is such capable of its own free will sufficiently pure to be offered acceptable to God.

The Scriptures are consistent in this matter.

It really isn't just my false claim.

Having shown from Scripture the principle proof, perhaps you can offer something from Scriptures that might modify the presentation?

Our only Sacrifice is after Salvation not for Salvation and it is Paul's plea not God's..
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
This sacrifice is our service to God. Just not the same kind of sacrifice as in the old testament. May I remind you though we are perfect in the eyes of God because all He see's is His Holy Son Jesus Christ. How can this be? It's because we wear the righteousness of Christ.
MB

 

[Dave G]

I finally answered mine before He went away

He would have never gone away, roby.
He came to seek and to save that which was lost.

A man named Spurgeon once called the Spirit of God, "the Hound of Heaven".
I think he was taking liberties with his analogy and was being overly dramatic, but the concept is definitely something I have to agree with.

God is not willing that any of His beloved children perish in His wrath, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

 

[Dave G]

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
This sacrifice is our service to God. Just not the same kind of sacrifice as in the old testament. May I remind you though we are perfect in the eyes of God because all He see's is His Holy Son Jesus Christ. How can this be? It's because we wear the righteousness of Christ.

Amen.

 

[Dave G]

The point of this thread is that it is inconsistent to hold that faith is a gift and that free will destroys faith.

In a way, I'd have to repeat myself from earlier.

The idea that man's will is free and unbiased towards God is not Scriptural.
The idea that every man's will is freed by God in order to believe on Christ when His word is preached, is not Scriptural.
The idea that faith is not a gift, but can be acquired by literally anyone "given the right conditions", is not Scriptural.

Election completely rules out the ability of all men to "exercise faith", or for all men to have an equal "chance" at being saved.

From God's perspective, they were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ) and chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
However, from man's perspective, literally anyone can be one of God's elect.

Therefore, in my opinion and firm belief:

The idea of man having a completely free and unbiased will, attempts to destroy the fact that faith is a gift from God.
It also attempts to destroy the fact that God has to open a person's heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) in order for them to listen intently to the Gospel, and to believe it...
From the heart ( not just with the mind as some sort of "mental assent" ).


To me, the Scriptural proofs have been gone over many times...

Man is not a "free moral agent".
An entire crowd of people sitting under the preaching of the Gospel does not become such, either.
Scripture says that we hate God ( Romans 1:30 ), naturally ( Romans 8:5-9, 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), and will not come to Him that we may have life.

That would require seeking Him and repenting of our sins from the heart, which we simply will not do ( Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10:4, John 3:19-20 ).
We are corrupt, and in desperate need of a "heart transplant".
But that miraculous work is only accomplished in a person of His choosing, not our choosing.

To me, the teaching that man's will is "free", tries to convince someone that faith can be appropriated by some other means than it being strictly a gift from God...
It teaches that a person can acquire it in order to gain God's favor.

A sinner actively gaining God's favor as a result of some effort on their part, is not what the Bible teaches.
That constitutes works.
God deciding to have mercy and compassion on someone ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), is what His word teaches.
That is grace.

That's also not "Calvinism".
That is the truth, and it is developed strictly from His word.

This is my final reply in this thread.


I wish all of you reading this, God's blessings in kindness through Christ Jesus.

 

[agedman]

Our only Sacrifice is after Salvation not for Salvation and it is Paul's plea not God's..
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
This sacrifice is our service to God. Just not the same kind of sacrifice as in the old testament. May I remind you though we are perfect in the eyes of God because all He see's is His Holy Son Jesus Christ. How can this be? It's because we wear the righteousness of Christ.
MB

That is exactly right!

The OT principle was that there was nothing humankind may offer as an acceptable sacrifice other than perfect.

As believers you are exactly correct that believers are as perfect in His sight, which makes all our sacrifice for Him acceptable.

However, as you point out, because we still dwell in this flesh, it should be that the elements of the earthy be put off daily.

When we are like Him, clothed in His righteousness, we are to do that which He purposed.

What praise we may gain is not ours, but to the honor of the Redeemer.

Good post!

 

[Revmitchell]

In a way, I'd have to repeat myself from earlier.

The idea that man's will is free and unbiased towards God is not Scriptural.

I didn't say that and i font know who believes that

 

[percho]

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:9,16,17

the tree of life

Did the first man Adam have free will?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

Redemption, foreordained before the foundation of the world.

and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; YLT Gal 4:4,5


What law brought the need for redemption? Was it not? But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why did Adam sin? Free will?

Rom 8:3 YLT for what the law* was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
* Thou shall not eat of it
Rom 7:14 YLT for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;

Adam acted as his Creator knew, the one created in his image, yet of the flesh would act, being given a spiritual law. Bring the need for redemption.

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; From Heb 2:14 That was the plan of God when he made man in his image. That is why the Word was made flesh.

Why did God plant a garden and put the man he had created in that garden where the devil was hanging out?

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18,17,16,15,14

Redemption is what destroyed the devil and his works and it would come through the Son of God manifested as man, dying and then being given life from the dead. 1 John 3:8