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How Can Man Be Just With God? God Found a Ransom!

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
It's a shame we're divided over these things, seeing that all of us claim Christ as our Savior.

I suppose Christ spoke a mouthful when He said He came not to bring peace, but a sword.

The Church should be a family of believers in one accord, but we are far from that.
This is true. Paul told us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is a shame we cannot discuss our shared salvation without personal attacks.

What I have found, to keep things civil, each person should be able to recite the other’s beliefs according to their own words, without misrepresenting what they believe.

You mentioned use of the word “world”. As with all other words, “world” has meaning in context.

In John 13 (?), some gentiles come to see Jesus. The Pharisees respond by claiming “the whole world” is coming after Him. In that context, does “world” mean literally the whole world? Of course not.

In John 3:16, the use of the phrase “whosoever believes” has already been limited by the prior verses concerning to role of God Holy Spirit in a person being “born again”.

The wind (Spirit) blows were it WILLS, so is everyone born of the Spirit.

This is actually a repeating theme in John… that those that are the children of God are born by the will of God (John 1), not by the will of man.

In John 3:16, the word “world” could mean the whole world without exception, however, given the limiting language of the preceding verses, it is more likely to mean both Jews and gentiles generally, without distinction but not without exception.

This is supported in John 10, the Good Shepard.

Peace to you
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
This is true. Paul told us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is a shame we cannot discuss our shared salvation without personal attacks.

What I have found, to keep things civil, each person should be able to recite the other’s beliefs according to their own words, without misrepresenting what they believe.

You mentioned use of the word “world”. As with all other words, “world” has meaning in context.

In John 13 (?), some gentiles come to see Jesus. The Pharisees respond by claiming “the whole world” is coming after Him. In that context, does “world” mean literally the whole world? Of course not.

In John 3:16, the use of the phrase “whosoever believes” has already been limited by the prior verses concerning to role of God Holy Spirit in a person being “born again”.

The wind (Spirit) blows were it WILLS, so is everyone born of the Spirit.

This is actually a repeating theme in John… that those that are the children of God are born by the will of God (John 1), not by the will of man.

In John 3:16, the word “world” could mean the whole world without exception, however, given the limiting language of the preceding verses, it is more likely to mean both Jews and gentiles generally, without distinction but not without exception.

This is supported in John 10, the Good Shepard.

Peace to you

There are tons of Greek words that have several meanings and must be applied to the context of Scripture to understand its exact meaning.

"World" is definitely one of them. But there can be no mistake in 1 John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
There are tons of Greek words that have several meanings and must be applied to the context of Scripture to understand its exact meaning.

"World" is definitely one of them. But there can be no mistake in 1 John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
The sins of...are not in the text.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
The sins of...are not in the text.

I know it's a tough concept for a Calvinist, but Christ was the satisfaction for "our sins" (the saved) and also the sins of the whole world (including the lost).

It's been said that the satisfaction for sin is as wide as the sin.

If man does not benefit from this satisfaction provided by Christ, it's not God's fault. Man is the guilty factor.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
all of us claim Christ as our Savior.

There are approximately 2.4 billion people who "claim Christ as our Savior". Many of those do so based on a false gospel, in which there is no salvation.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
There are approximately 2.4 billion people who "claim Christ as our Savior". Many of those do so based on a false gospel, in which there is no salvation.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Yes, that's a sad fact! We can certainly agree on that.
 

JPPT1974

Active Member
Site Supporter
But really we need to show that without Christ, we are nothing. But with Christ, we are His. You can only hope before Jesus comes back or when we leave this earth for eternity(don't like to use the word die as more sad.) with Christ welcoming us. Knowing we realize not just with words but with actions. Walk the walk not just talk the talk.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
There are tons of Greek words that have several meanings and must be applied to the context of Scripture to understand its exact meaning.

"World" is definitely one of them. But there can be no mistake in 1 John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
That is the debate. If Christ made propitiation for sins of every person without exception, then why does anyone go to hell?

Those that support “free will” will say (as I have heard some, not you, say) is that propitiation is made for all sins except rejecting Christ and the gospel. When folks use their free will to reject Christ, they will then be condemned.

The main problem with such reasoning is that scripture never says humans have “free will”, ever. If fact, scripture declares the opposite.. that every human being is enslaved to sin.

So, to reconcile the passages mentioned, I favor the “whole world” as meaning everyone without distinction (both Jew and Gentiles) instead of everyone without exception, especially since John has used the world in his gospel to mean everyone without distinction, not everyone without exception.

Peace to you
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
That is the debate. If Christ made propitiation for sins of every person without exception, then why does anyone go to hell?

Those that support “free will” will say (as I have heard some, not you, say) is that propitiation is made for all sins except rejecting Christ and the gospel. When folks use their free will to reject Christ, they will then be condemned.

The main problem with such reasoning is that scripture never says humans have “free will”, ever. If fact, scripture declares the opposite.. that every human being is enslaved to sin.

So, to reconcile the passages mentioned, I favor the “whole world” as meaning everyone without distinction (both Jew and Gentiles) instead of everyone without exception, especially since John has used the world in his gospel to mean everyone without distinction, not everyone without exception.

Peace to you

Personally, and I'm dead serious, I have no time for a Calvinist God, I would rather be separated from Him.

But that is not the God I know.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
I know it's a tough concept for a Calvinist, but Christ was the satisfaction for "our sins" (the saved) and also the sins of the whole world (including the lost).

It's been said that the satisfaction for sin is as wide as the sin.

If man does not benefit from this satisfaction provided by Christ, it's not God's fault. Man is the guilty factor.
Which is why you do not believe in an actual propitiation. Instead you propose a potential salvation in which man must save himself.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Personally, and I'm dead serious, I have no time for a Calvinist God, I would rather be separated from Him.

But that is not the God I know.
The problem is there is only one True and living God! You by your own words say you do not know Him! To be clear...if a person says..."I cannot, and will not believe in a God who sends people to second death, saying depart from me, I never knew you...What would you say or conclude about that false confession? You are like a person staining a floor and painting himself into a corner! Is that where you want to be?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
That is the debate. If Christ made propitiation for sins of every person without exception, then why does anyone go to hell?

Those that support “free will” will say (as I have heard some, not you, say) is that propitiation is made for all sins except rejecting Christ and the gospel. When folks use their free will to reject Christ, they will then be condemned.

The main problem with such reasoning is that scripture never says humans have “free will”, ever. If fact, scripture declares the opposite.. that every human being is enslaved to sin.

So, to reconcile the passages mentioned, I favor the “whole world” as meaning everyone without distinction (both Jew and Gentiles) instead of everyone without exception, especially since John has used the world in his gospel to mean everyone without distinction, not everyone without exception.

Peace to you

They go to hell because they have rejected the means of salvation.

Definition you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

The words free will like "trinity" are not found in the bible but the concept is cl;early seen in scripture.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Luk 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What we do not see in scripture is one verse in the New Testament that contains the word atonement/propitiation which conveys the Calvinist understanding of limited atonement.

The only time you find "atonement" G2643 in the NT is in Rom_5:11 of the KJV.
In modern translations the Greek word καταλλαγή is found four times in the NT {Rom_5:11; Rom_11:15; 2Co_5:18-19} and is rendered "reconciliation" G2643 "in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ" Thayer

Further we see in Rom_5:18 that “judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation” and that “the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life”
This verse flies in the face of Calvinism and their “limited atonement view”
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Which is why you do not believe in an actual propitiation. Instead you propose a potential salvation in which man must save himself.

See post @ 36

The bible speaks of potential salvation as man must make the choice to either reject or trust in God. God does not do it for him.

ph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The problem is there is only one True and living God! You by your own words say you do not know Him! To be clear...if a person says..."I cannot, and will not believe in a God who sends people to second death, saying depart from me, I never knew you...What would you say or conclude about that false confession? You are like a person staining a floor and painting himself into a corner! Is that where you want to be?

The calvinist version of God is not the God we find in scripture.

Yes God sends people to hell when they freely reject Him but the calvinist is the one that makes man reject Him.

Your divine determinism requires that God determine all things not just some things so those that reject God do so because the calvinist God has determined that they would do so.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
They go to hell because they have rejected the means of salvation.

Definition you need to know
Propitiation The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of one making propitious. {in biblical theology, God} 1Jn_2:2
Propitious Disposed to be gracious or merciful; ready to forgive sins and bestow blessings; applied to God. Webster

The words free will like "trinity" are not found in the bible but the concept is cl;early seen in scripture.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Luk 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

What we do not see in scripture is one verse in the New Testament that contains the word atonement/propitiation which conveys the Calvinist understanding of limited atonement.

The only time you find "atonement" G2643 in the NT is in Rom_5:11 of the KJV.
In modern translations the Greek word καταλλαγή is found four times in the NT {Rom_5:11; Rom_11:15; 2Co_5:18-19} and is rendered "reconciliation" G2643 "in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ" Thayer

Further we see in Rom_5:18 that “judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation” and that “the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life”
This verse flies in the face of Calvinism and their “limited atonement view”
Now it would be nice, if you believed propitiation, and Atonement are actual, rather than potential!
 
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