How can "sola scriptura" be possible?

[Thinkingstuff]

You all are certainly a lot more educated on this than I am.

Reguarding the icons, etc..
Since there are no scriptures suggesting that we use anything like that, but there are certainly scriptures suggesting that it is sin to use images like that, I think I'll stay away.

Even the image of the snake that Moses made was burned because people started worshipping it, right?

Really, I understand the EO argument for them. I do think its sad that we dont honor and remember the saints who paved the way for us. I just recently read a book on it, but really, the whole thing sounds like the devils trickery. If he can convince people that they arent worshipping, then they will go ahead and do it. Its like denial.


Of course I could be wrong. I've been wrong once or twice. (or a thousand times)

All I do know, is that sola scriptura seems faulty by itself because it has resulted in so many different types of churches. I dont think that one can really take the bible and decide with only the bible what is true. We need other people and history to help us with it.

Now.. the two churches that claim to be the right ones both look sort of .. eh to me. They have very questionable practices, so I find myself in a bit of a predicament.

I dont like that the baptists who pound their bibles are adament that baptism and the lords supper are not sacramental, even though if you take the texts by themselves, it really sounds as though they ARE sacramental. ESPECIALLY the Lords supper.. There were many who didnt walk with Jesus anymore because they couldnt accept that difficult teaching. though I guess thats a whole new topic.

I should probably just become Lutheran and get it over with. It definately looks as though that is where I'll end up.

btw-I do think that the gospel is present in the Catholic churches. I didnt hear it when I was being raised a Catholic, but I sure do now when I go. I think maybe when I became a protestant, that is when my faith became personal. Now when I go to the Catholic church, Im all ears. I hear many good things there, and I LOVE the worship. When I go to a Catholic church, I really feel as though I actually have worshipped God. When I go to my baptist church, I wonder if the sermon is going to be good or boring. Either way, baptist or Catholic, God does want our hearts and either of those options can become mundane and simply ceremonial.

WOw I've said a lot.

You have said a lot! The early church was sacramental just read JND Kelly's book on early christian doctrines. As far as protestant churches there is the orthodox Anglican church as well. I'm not one of these but just a thought since you want sacramental worship.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

My wife had another good point. Are nativity scenes displayed in churches for christmas idols?

 

[DHK]

I don't agree with your logic. If you are right. The ark of the covenant was idolatry (seraphim), The temple was idolatry (images of seraphim), man himself is idolatry since we are made in the image of God. All pictures of people must be idolatry. All pictures of animals is idolatry. All pictures representing the heavens are idolatry

They did not worship the ark of the covenant.
The seraphim were images of angels, not God.
They did not worship the Temple. It was a place of worship.
Do you know what it means "to be made in the image of God." Does God have a body? Did he when he created Adam? You need more study on what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God. It has nothing to do with physical appearance.
Do you worship your pets? Yes, if you have animals that you worship, destroy them and their pictures; I agree.
If you are worshiping the pictures of the heavens then destroy them. Otherwise they are not images of God are they? They are images of God's creation. I thought you could figure out the difference.

Cameras are anathema to your theology if I follow your logic to its conclusion. God does not want idolatry to worship other gods or treat God equal to other gods or as part of a pantheon of Gods. Aaron was trying to get out of trouble by lying and tried to convince himself and the people it was ok to make this calf becasue it was a feast to the Lord as if God were a part of many ways!

And this has to do with a camera how??

The stations of the cross are to remind people of Jesus' passion! Did you worship them or did you honor Christ?

The Bible defines bowing before an idol and praying before it as worship. I may not have thought of it as worship, but that doesn't matter. The Bible defines it as worship. It was. And it is. And it is sin to this day.

Do those pictures have the power to heal?

Who said they did?

Do they remind you of what our lord suffered for our sins? That is their intent. When you bowed was it out of respect for Jesus or was it in hopes that the pictures themselves would save you? Catholics do not believe that! I know, I was a catholic once even as you once were. So, I do know! The pictures (for that is what they are) are a reminder of God and we worship him.

Reminder or not, it is still idolatry. What you thought and did as a Catholic is one thing. What the Bible says is still another. The Bible defines it as idolatry. You bowed down before a graven image. That is idolatry, a direct violation of the 2nd and 3rd commandments.

If you worship them as though they have power in of themselves to save then yes you worshiped them and you sinned.

Bowing down in front of them and praying before them is worship.

God wants us talking about him all the time. Thinking about him all the time. So that we never ever forget him in every moment of our lives pictures help this once again:

Did you also pray to Mary, St. Christopher and the other "saints," all of which is forbidden in Scripture?

That we might answer the call "let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Those things are not even considered in heaven. God does not allow sin in heaven.

 

[DHK]

My wife had another good point. Are nativity scenes displayed in churches for christmas idols?

We would never have one in our church for that very reason.
And if some would, we would always advise to leave the manger empty.
It is Jesus or the infant that they worship. It is Jesus that is God. Thou shalt not make a graven image (unto me) in context.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Though you claim to be Orthodox, you act like a Catholic and redefine words at your own will and whim. I gave you the definition of "icon." You seem bent on refusing it.

I am "Catholic" DHK, but not Roman.

Here's the intoduction to "icon" from Wikipedia:

An icon (from Greek εἰκών, eikōn, "image")​

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

I am "Catholic" DHK, but not Roman.

Here's the intoduction to "icon" from Wikipedia:

An icon (from Greek εἰκών, eikōn, "image")​

In XC
-

You stick to an abbreviated definition, against all common sense, like the Catholic philosophy of redefining words to suit their own means.

 

[mrtumnus]

You all are certainly a lot more educated on this than I am.

Reguarding the icons, etc..
Since there are no scriptures suggesting that we use anything like that, but there are certainly scriptures suggesting that it is sin to use images like that, I think I'll stay away.

Even the image of the snake that Moses made was burned because people started worshipping it, right?

Really, I understand the EO argument for them. I do think its sad that we dont honor and remember the saints who paved the way for us. I just recently read a book on it, but really, the whole thing sounds like the devils trickery. If he can convince people that they arent worshipping, then they will go ahead and do it. Its like denial.


Of course I could be wrong. I've been wrong once or twice. (or a thousand times)

All I do know, is that sola scriptura seems faulty by itself because it has resulted in so many different types of churches. I dont think that one can really take the bible and decide with only the bible what is true. We need other people and history to help us with it.

Now.. the two churches that claim to be the right ones both look sort of .. eh to me. They have very questionable practices, so I find myself in a bit of a predicament.

I dont like that the baptists who pound their bibles are adament that baptism and the lords supper are not sacramental, even though if you take the texts by themselves, it really sounds as though they ARE sacramental. ESPECIALLY the Lords supper.. There were many who didnt walk with Jesus anymore because they couldnt accept that difficult teaching. though I guess thats a whole new topic.

I should probably just become Lutheran and get it over with. It definately looks as though that is where I'll end up.

btw-I do think that the gospel is present in the Catholic churches. I didnt hear it when I was being raised a Catholic, but I sure do now when I go. I think maybe when I became a protestant, that is when my faith became personal. Now when I go to the Catholic church, Im all ears. I hear many good things there, and I LOVE the worship. When I go to a Catholic church, I really feel as though I actually have worshipped God. When I go to my baptist church, I wonder if the sermon is going to be good or boring. Either way, baptist or Catholic, God does want our hearts and either of those options can become mundane and simply ceremonial.

WOw I've said a lot.

Wow, you did say a lot.:wavey:

Sounds to me like you're a Lutheran. I'm thankful you have had the experience of worship within a Catholic church and were able to appreciate it.

I would point out one thing about the snake -- it was actually God who told Moses to make the snake, and have the people look on it and be healed. Technically a graven image. Since God certainly would not violate the spirit of His own commandments (or direct Moses to), there is a lesson to be learned here I think. It wasn't until the people forgot it was God who healed them and the snake was only something visual to help with this, and they began to actually worship the snake and credit it with the source of the power that God had it destroyed. Seems He recognizes the difference between actually constructing and worshipping an idol or using an image to draw one closer to God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK said...

"God is prohibiting icons of himself, that is images of either Him or of Jesus, who is God."

And Agnus Dei said...

"We, YOU and I are icons DHK! We are made in the image and likeness of GOD! Furthermore, what you claim flys in the face of the Incarnation."

This is just amazing. Page after page it just keeps getting worse. The nonsensical and ridiculous statements that keep coming from these dear ones who are defending this overwhelmingly clear idolatry that exists in the cultic Catholic Church and the cultic Orthodox.

God have mercy.


:godisgood:

 

[Matt Black]

Did God make icons. You can take that up with God. I would not accuse him of such folly, however!

The Incarnation destroys your position (Phil 2:6 etc); Jesus is in the likeness of God. So God, according to your argument, has broken His commandment.

Furthermore, we are made in His image (Gen 1:27), so every time someone is conceived, according to you, God breaks His commandment. I suggest you and Alive in Christ re-read Gen 1:27; what Agnus has said in that regard is 100% Biblical.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They did not worship the ark of the covenant.
The seraphim were images of angels, not God.
They did not worship the Temple. It was a place of worship.

The Bible defines bowing before an idol and praying before it as worship. I may not have thought of it as worship, but that doesn't matter. The Bible defines it as worship. It was. And it is. And it is sin to this day.

Bowing down in front of them and praying before them is worship.

Sorry DHK you've contradicted yourself here. You state they did not worship the ark of the covenant (I agree with you) and there are "graven images" of the Seraphim on the ark in the temple which people "bowed down before" Which is your definition of worship. So they bowed down before the ark and in the temple therefore before graven images therefore it is sin. You've contradicted yourself in one post. You can't be right with both statements.

No matter how you slice it we're made in the image of God. Which is why we respect human life and give value to humanity eventhough it is sinful. We are showing respect to our creator in whose image we are made. That's why murder is dealt with by killing in the OT. To kill God's very image is an offence to God. Maybe thats why the veneration of icons in the Catholic and Orthodox churches show much respect. Its' a thought though.

 

[BRIANH]

There is no patristic support for images in a church. There is considereable writings against it


Letter 51, as quoted from Jerome, From Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, in Cyprus, to John, Bishop of Jerusalem. This letter originates around the year 400 AD. Epiphanius, a bishop, wrote about how he ripped an “icon” of a wall andWhen I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have s ent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort — opposed as they are to our religion — shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A than of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offense unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge.”



Around the year 3oo AD, a prolific Christian author named Lactanius from Africa writes the following about images:
Whoever, therefore, is anxious to observe the obligations to which man is liable, and to maintain a regard for his nature, let him raise himself from the ground, and, with mind lifted up, let him direct his eyes to heaven: let him not seek God under his feet, nor dig up from his footprints an object of veneration, for whatever lies beneath man must necessarily be inferior to man; but let him seek it aloft, let him seek it in the highest place: for nothing can be greater than man, except that which is above man. But God is greater than man: therefore He is above, and not below; nor is He to be sought in the lowest, but rather in the highest region. Wherefore it is undoubted that there is no religion wherever there is an image. For if religion consists of divine things, and there is nothing divine except in heavenly things; it follows that images are without religion, because there can be nothing heavenly in that which is made from the earth.”



Origen writes the following in Against Celsus:
“But Christians and Jews have regard to this command, "Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve Him alone;" and this other, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me: thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them;" and again, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God….

There have been a lot of historical inaccuracies thrown around. The Jewish synagogues did not have images; men or animals. They did have some symbols, lots of them, but no images. People are taking the Ark and somehow contending that imagery was used in synagogues; which they just did not do. At all. This is easy. Find a link or book to one dig that unearthed them. There have been hundreds of such uncovered

 

[Bro. James]

Good morning one and all

"Let us make man in Our Image..." Then Adam fell. We still worship our vanity, men and women: lust of eyes, lust of flesh, and pride of life in the miry clay of our depravity. Check out the advertisements on the cable TV--mostly snake oil to improve on our depravity. Save your money--for hydrocarbon fuels.

Commandment #2, Exodus 20:4-6, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them tht love me, and keep my commandments."

Scripture needs no commentary, nor papal bulls.

One more: John 4:23,24 reads: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and in TRUTH: for the Father seeketh such to whoship Him. God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH." Emphasis mine.

Observation: we are all guilty of some degree of iconism. Regardless of our rationale, scripture does not condone any of it. I know of some who carry this to an interesting point: they are Christians who have no steeples, crosses, stained glass, musical instruments nor holy water in their meeting houses.

What would an icon of a spirit look like? Icons of Diana come in many forms; even if that impacts our livelihood and/or spirituality(?).

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Just a few observations:

1) At the time of the giving of the Commandments to Moses, the Hebrew people had just recently been freed from pagan Egypt.

2) We have to determine what the Hebrew word “graven image” meant to the Hebrew people.

Lesson’s learned:

Egypt was a pagan nation and worshipped idols and surely the Hebrew people being in captivity for so long became accustomed to such idol worship, seeing it every day. Thus Moses received the Commandments and in those we see “graven image.”

The word “graven image” when translated into Greek [the Septuagint], it was translated as eidoloi or “idols”. Interestingly enough, a quick search through Blue Letter Bible dot com, the Hebrew word for “graven image” pesel is never used in reference to any of the images in the temple. Wonder why?

So obviously the reference here in the Commandments is to pagan images, rather than images in general. Thus when we limit “graven images” only to idols, as its intended, no contradiction exists.

In XC
-

 

[Matt Black]

...which surely has to be what God meant, otherwise, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, He's violated His own rule.

 

[annsni]

The Incarnation destroys your position (Phil 2:6 etc); Jesus is in the likeness of God. So God, according to your argument, has broken His commandment.

Furthermore, we are made in His image (Gen 1:27), so every time someone is conceived, according to you, God breaks His commandment. I suggest you and Alive in Christ re-read Gen 1:27; what Agnus has said in that regard is 100% Biblical.

God makes lots of laws that He can break.

Jesus ascended into heaven - He broke the law of gravity.

God killed many people on the spot including Ananias and Sapphira. He broke the law of "Thou shalt not murder"

God stopped the sun from coursing over the sky one day - He broke the law of .... nature.

God is not held to the laws that He gave us.

 

[BRIANH]

God makes lots of laws that He can break.

Jesus ascended into heaven - He broke the law of gravity.

God killed many people on the spot including Ananias and Sapphira. He broke the law of "Thou shalt not murder"

God stopped the sun from coursing over the sky one day - He broke the law of .... nature.

God is not held to the laws that He gave us.

The only reason I did not post that is because I thought everyone else would too. Of course. Absolutely. Well said.

 

[DHK]

No matter how you slice it we're made in the image of God. Which is why we respect human life and give value to humanity eventhough it is sinful. We are showing respect to our creator in whose image we are made. That's why murder is dealt with by killing in the OT. To kill God's very image is an offence to God. Maybe thats why the veneration of icons in the Catholic and Orthodox churches show much respect. Its' a thought though.

The Lord said "Thou shalt not make unto me "any graven image or likeness...
We are not made in the physical likeness of God.
To say so is heresy.
God is spirit, they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
When the Ten Commandments were given there was no physical likeness of God.
We are not speaking of the Incarnation here. That has nothing to do with this command. Man was made in the image and likeness of God. To say that that image and likeness was physical is heresy. God is not, was not, physical. He is spirit. The image that he spoke of was spiritual, moral, the ability to reason, choose, etc. It is the difference that make us different from the animal kingdom. It has nothing to do with a physical image. To insist that God has a physical image and likeness and we are made in that physical image and likeness is a well-known heresy.
It is very much like Mormonism.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Lord said "Thou shalt not make unto me "any graven image or likeness...
We are not made in the physical likeness of God.
To say so is heresy.
God is spirit, they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
When the Ten Commandments were given there was no physical likeness of God.
We are not speaking of the Incarnation here. That has nothing to do with this command. Man was made in the image and likeness of God. To say that that image and likeness was physical is heresy. God is not, was not, physical. He is spirit. The image that he spoke of was spiritual, moral, the ability to reason, choose, etc. It is the difference that make us different from the animal kingdom. It has nothing to do with a physical image. To insist that God has a physical image and likeness and we are made in that physical image and likeness is a well-known heresy.
It is very much like Mormonism.

Graven image or likeness? Physical? I don't think in the quote you have there there is a mention that it has to be a physical likeness. it just says likeness. So God made man in the likeness of God in the image of God. Doesn't say anything about physical likeness. just likeness just like your quote likeness. God would have broken a command that he gave to humanity. Either that or something is amiss.

 

[annsni]

God would have broken a command that he gave to humanity.

So? Is God held to the laws that He gave man?

 

[DHK]

Graven image or likeness? Physical? I don't think in the quote you have there there is a mention that it has to be a physical likeness. it just says likeness. So God made man in the likeness of God in the image of God. Doesn't say anything about physical likeness. just likeness just like your quote likeness. God would have broken a command that he gave to humanity. Either that or something is amiss.

Exodus 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
1. Overall context--verse 3: idols.
2. Immediate context--verse 4 graven images.
3. Exactly what it says: "any graven image or any likeness of....
--It is speaking of graven images. Likenesses of God that are made "with something," a physical likeness.
4. Thou shalt not bow down to them. You cannot bow down to something nebulous, like air. God is spirit. We bow down to God and worship Him because we know Who He is. Man is not spirit and therefore is not made after His physical image. This is a heretical view. This is the context of these verses--the physical image of God. There is no such thing and that is why it is wrong. That is why the golden calf was wrong. It wrongly portrayed God. It wasn't God.

Can man be wrongly worshiped as a god. Yes! That is what the religion of humanism is all about. However that does not make man an "icon." Man falls outside of that definition. He may, at times, fall within the definition of an idol, but not an icon. To suggest that, is ridiculous, and goes against the very definition of icon.