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how can the RCC Claim to be THE teacher On Christianity and Doctrines?

plain_n_simple

plain_n_simple

Active Member
targus said:
You are the one introducing the word into the discussion.

Tell me what you mean by "fruit".

And how about a direct answer - When two or more Christians that are indwelt with the Holy Sprit read the same Scriptures and come to different and conflicting interpretations how do you know who is right?
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One of them is not hearing the Spirit. The test is given to us. Fruit, or the works that Jesus did, separate someone that talks, and someone that does.
Anyone can do "good deeds", like mowing a lawn, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it's no measure for real works of the spirit
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
Zenas said:
Prove it, and please begin by showing a point in time where there arose a new denomination known as the Roman Catholic Church. As I said, this could have happened by a split, or by some independent movement that appeared on the scene. So show me, from sound history and not from someone with a doctrinal axe to grind, where this happened. Convince me of this and I will retreat from my pro Catholic stance.
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I could show you, but I don't believe you would accept it.

First, the scripture knows of no teaching or organization even remotely resembling the RCC. All of the distinctive RCC doctrines find no basis in scripture; they are later -- even much later -- additions and inventions. The RCC is a result of an amalgamation of a corrupted "Christian tradition" and influx of paganism, a state-church union that became a murdering machine.

There were no monarchical bishops in the New Testament. There were two orders of ministry -- pastor and deacon. The words pastor/elder/presbyter/bishop are synonymous.

The RCC beliefs about Peter are fables with no scriptural or historical support. Here is a good article which you will no doubt disbelieve:
http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=5820

That's a start.
 
Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
plain_n_simple said:
One of them is not hearing the Spirit. The test is given to us. Fruit, or the works that Jesus did, separate someone that talks, and someone that does.
Anyone can do "good deeds", like mowing a lawn, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it's no measure for real works of the spirit
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To what authority do you appeal to, to decide who is spirit led and who is not?
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
targus said:
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you were addressing my question.

Perhaps you could.

When two or more Christians that are indwelt with the Holy Sprit read the same Scriptures and come to different and conflicting interpretations how do you know who is right?
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You don't, and you don't need to. Everyone is partly right and partly wrong -- we all see through a glass, darkly.

Even the monolithic RCC does not have uniformity of doctrine. Just look at the various religious orders to see the truth of that. And that's just one example.

The crux of the matter is this: Which best exemplifies the character of God and teachings of Jesus -- soul liberty, in which a person is free to interpret the scriptures as God leads, or a top-down, man-made authoritarian organization which says that it is and will be the Holy Spirit for its members, telling them what is truth and what they must believe?
 
F

Fred's Wife

Member
targus said:
So when two or more Christians that are indwelt with the Holy Sprit read the same Scriptures and come to different and conflicting interpretations...?
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In that case, those born again Christians aren't being led or controlled by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be quenched or grieved.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That is why God tells us to "test/try" the spirits (1 John 4:1). I was told as a young Christian never to "trust Christians", but to always "trust Christ". Just because someone claims to be born again and has the correct "interpretation" of Scripture, doesn't mean that they do. The apostle Paul wrote to the believers in Corinth, to "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1)

When you find that the interpretations of a group of born again believers are different and "conflict" with each other, you are to "check them out with Scripture". Diligent study of God's Word is the key.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Young Timothy was taught the Scriptures by his mother Eunice and his grandmother Lois.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
plain_n_simple

plain_n_simple

Active Member
"When you find that the interpretations of a group of born again believers are different and "conflict" with each other, you are to "check them out with Scripture". Diligent study of God's Word is the key."

Wrong test, or incomplete. You could further incorrectly interpret scripture and create a 3rd opinion. Use the test Jesus said to use.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
Fred's Wife said:
In that case, those born again Christians aren't being led or controlled by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be quenched or grieved.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That is why God tells us to "test/try" the spirits (1 John 4:1). I was told as a young Christian never to "trust Christians", but to always "trust Christ". Just because someone claims to be born again and has the correct "interpretation" of Scripture, doesn't mean that they do. The apostle Paul wrote to the believers in Corinth, to "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1)

When you find that the interpretations of a group of born again believers are different and "conflict" with each other, you are to "check them out with Scripture". Diligent study of God's Word is the key.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Young Timothy was taught the Scriptures by his mother Eunice and his grandmother Lois.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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Why do you have to resort to a contrived and obviously false argument? Why the need for a person or a group of people to be 100% correct on 100% of all doctrines? This was never the case, never will be the case, and never should be the case. This is how the seed of persecution begins.

We all see through a glass, darkly. And I have come to believe that is a good thing, not a bad one. None of us are God.
 
M

Michael Wrenn

New Member
I love these discussions, but I have to stop doing what I love and go do something I don't love -- grade papers.

Hope to be back later.
 
T

targus

New Member
Michael Wrenn said:
You don't, and you don't need to. Everyone is partly right and partly wrong -- we all see through a glass, darkly.

Even the monolithic RCC does not have uniformity of doctrine. Just look at the various religious orders to see the truth of that. And that's just one example.

The crux of the matter is this: Which best exemplifies the character of God and teachings of Jesus -- soul liberty, in which a person is free to interpret the scriptures as God leads, or a top-down, man-made authoritarian organization which says that it is and will be the Holy Spirit for its members, telling them what is truth and what they must believe?
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Then Catholics should have the soul liberty to believe what they believe.

No one is forced to be Catholic then it follows that the Catholic Church isn't really telling anyone what to believe - since anyone is free to not believe and leave.

So what's the big deal?
 
F

Fred's Wife

Member
Michael Wrenn said:
Why do you have to resort to a contrived and obviously false argument? Why the need for a person or a group of people to be 100% correct on 100% of all doctrines? This was never the case, never will be the case, and never should be the case. This is how the seed of persecution begins.

We all see through a glass, darkly. And I have come to believe that is a good thing, not a bad one. None of us are God.
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Where did I state that it is necessary for a group of believers to be 100% correct on 100% of all doctrines? We are all fallible and prone to error. That's why we have the Holy Spirit. All I am saying is that we are to be discerning...to discern what is truth and what is error.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I also never said that anyone of us is God.

Your assumptions are false.
 
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A

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
plain_n_simple said:
Either you cast out demons and heal the sick or you dont.
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Well, I don't, bud. Are you saying YOU DO? If so, how about starting with Joni Eareckson Tada? Let's here on her next 5-minute radio spot that after almost exactly 45 years she's been healed by...some guy who calls himself plain n simple.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Zenas said:
1. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter.

2. Jesus charged His disciples, who became apostles after Pentecost, with shepherding His church.

3. Jesus told his disciples to go out and teach. He never told them to write a New Testament.

4. The promise of John 16:13 was made to the disciples, not to all Christians.

5. When problems arose in the N.T. church they took it to their leaders (Paul, Timothy, Titus, Peter, etc.). If they could not be resolved, the leaders got together and worked out the proper procedure (Acts 15).

6. According to Paul, the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15.

7. (And this is the one Protestants have trouble with) The church founded by Jesus is the same church that today has its headquarters in the Vatican. You can go back through history and you will not find where the Catholic church began, either as a new denomination or as an offshoot of some other church. It always has been, since Pentecost.

8. The Bishop of Rome continues to hold the keys of the kingdom.
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the local church was the Pillars, and you still have the problem that per RCC, there were 3 Apostles seen as "Popes" peter/paul/James!

peter to the Jews, Paul to gentiles, James to "vaticon" of the time...

Again, why should the RCC be seen different than either JW/Mormons, as both of them claim only true church, claiming to be trueinterprators of the Bible for today! Caiming prophets/Apostles, as the RCC does for today!
 
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