How Dare You....

Mexdeaf.

I apologise. I'll wait until you have calmed down a bit.

john.

 

tinytim.

I know. But there is nothing like failure either and if we are still sending missionaries to the same place for centuries I think it's time for a fresh think.
We live in society, we speak. We go to a foreign land and we are separated because we are telling them but we are not teaching them to stand for themselves. That's why I said it is like imperialism. Keep the coolies in their places.
It is the same here. Church is meant to be an all member ministery but all you find is the same people week after week leading and the rest sitting wondering how long the sermon's going to last.

Tell me what the point of going is. What does a missionary do that a native couldn't do?

john.

 

johnp,

seriously, are you really this unknowing about the state of foreign missions today? There are many national pastors in Africa! That doesn't mean that they don't need more churches started! Goodness.....that's like saying we ought to be done witnessing here in America! Everybody should be converted because we've worked here for a coupla centuries already.

Sometimes, just the fact that a person is willing to go all the way across the planet to bring them a message makes the nationals sit up and listen more.

However, your idea of what missionaries do today is really very disturbing. IMHO, you need to go on a missions trip and see for yourself what they do.......perhaps that family in France that you have mentioned.
If not them, Ive got several names you could choose from, a few of them are even in Africa. Try a missions trip to India......that'll really open your eyes. We support some national pastors in India, btw.

 

separate does not always mean unequal. And children learn differently than adults do. Im not agreeing with a "comic book" type of message, however, the children need things in smaller bits than adults can handle. They need some more basic instruction and some different emphasis.

you're right that we need to realize the national pastors are just as worthy of recognition as the missionaries. But this does not negate the need for a missionary. My ideal for missions is the missionary going, starting a church, and raising that church up to the level where it is self-supporting and sending out national pastors into it's own community as well as other foreign nations. And yes, I know of several scenarios where this is exactly what is happening. Im not so enamored of the idea of a missionary absolutely having to leave his new church and starting another one every two or three years.
(although I know God calls some men to be prolific church planters)

Im sorry, this is a very faulty assumption

many have done exactly this.

I think you really don't realize that the missionaries of today are not living in their own little compounds far above and away from the "regular folk" they are ministering to. They are living right along with the national people. Honestly, you do realize that Africa is not just made up of mud huts and dirt floors anymore? And where they are the missionary is living right along with them.

 

For example we have some missionaries in Bolivia that run a Seminary. They are training natives to Pastor.

 

absolutely Ann! Good analogy!

 

Perhaps it is I that should apologise to you. I can see that perhaps you have had a bad experience with missionaries or perhaps have some things to learn (as we all do).

God bless you.:thumbs:

 

Hello all.

That is more than a possibility bapmom.

What has witnessing to do with seminaries? Why train up pastors, what is it, three years, to do what should be natural for us.
Isn't Christianity about spreading the word of God and that doesn't take college does it? Red China managed to increase the flock by 50 million without outside missionaries from seminaries on the whole.

But why is the missionary there in the first place instead of a missionary from the population. I know there are probably many but why any foreigners? Africa is rich in Christians.

Have these Pastors no congregation closer to hand than the US or Britain? It is not pastors that are needed so much as indigenous Christians willing and enabled to go amongst their own people preaching and teaching. Leadership will come as a gift of God not through gaining a diploma. When you say pastors I see a bloke with a white collar preaching from a pulpit and that's it. If mission is the point then they should teach the congregation to be missionaries where they are. If the congregation took this on we would not need to send anyone anywhere but local.

Your probably right about me but I am off to a mission field soon. I have been invited by a man I have met on our discussion forum that wants me to go with him to the geological society to talk with the boffins about God's six day creation. I have told him I would go. When people talk of mission it is abroad but mission is an every day affair for Christians isn't it?

I don't believe that. I believe God works though His word and an outsider is always that. Especially you lot and us.

Why send people half way round the world when your own neighbourhood is still in the dark? Shouldn't we put our own house in order first?
I've been trying to reply for ages now but I've given up. I made some points and I might have mixed up the quotes.

Teach me.

Hello Mexdeaf.

It's cool. I am to blame for rushing head-long, a bull in a china shop. I know there are people called to suffer for the sake of the gospel and I was surrounded by Christian missionaries when I was growing up in central London.
tinytim has said For example we have some missionaries in Bolivia that run a Seminary. They are training natives to Pastor. That's what I'm saying. We need to teach and let them get on with it but why the seminary? Isn't Christianity about spreading the word of God and that doesn't take college does it?

This is a big problem I have. Education doesn't make good pastors God does.

john.

 

I forgot about the kid thing. I will catch up (not tomatoe) tomorrow sorry.

john.

 

Except where are the Scriptures that say it is the church's responsibility, whether alone or shared with parents, to teach members' children ? Deuteronomy 6 clearly lays the responsibility on the parents. So does the New Testament, whose principles and rules stem from the Old Testament.

I am all for teaching children absolute values and Godly character, but it ought to be done God's way, and God's way is the home way, and what may sometimes look good and appealing to men is not exactly good and appealing to God, which is why he says "my ways are not your ways, neither are your thoughts my thoughts".

Sunday School, for example, is totally unscriptural. Here you grind out children who sing "Oh, How I Love Jesus", and "Jesus Loves Me This I Know", who do not really know the Lord, who have not been drawn to Christ, and do not really love Jesus. We have in effect pagans offering sacrifices of praise to the living God.

Let's bring our children to church, sitting with us in the pews, listening to God's word. Period. Let's bring them up in the word of God at home, train them in the values of the word at home, and train them that Sunday is church day, not beach day, or baseball day, or picnic day, or any other day, and the bond between parent, child, and God will grow tighter and firmer.

 

I can only speak for my own country, and do not know what the conditions are in other countries. But, except for a few exceptions, most of the missionaries I've seen, especially in the 70's onwards, congregate either in the large cities, or in the larger towns, not in the mountain villages, or the coastal villages, where the really poor folk are, who are under the influences of Roman Catholic priests or laymen. I have yet to meet a missionary, for example, who lives in his own canoe with his family, among the poor Badjaos, sea faring people in the South, who live at sea, on outriggers, with their families.

I had yet to hear of a missionary who lives in the hinterlands of Samar, where they may be in danger of communist raids, or of "lost command" assaults, lost commands are military renegades who have turned cattle rustlers, rapists, murderers, robbers.

I have not heard of missionaries who learned how to use a water buffalo for hauling his supplies from town uphill, or to sow a field of corn for his consumption, or went visiting folks on horseback, or ride on top of cabs pulled alongside by 120hp Honda or Kawasaki motorcycles.

They're mostly in town, where the educated folks are, where the churches are, where the rich folks are, where the conveniences are, and if there are some who do go to the far-flung barrios or those that you need to reach thru 6 or 8 mile uphill treks in communist or muslim or lost command territories, they mostly go there for a photoshoot with the poor folk in churches and the local, indigenous pastor, so they can send these photos back home to their supporters.

Sorry, but in some respects, I am with johnp on this one.

If the Lord will raise His man, He will raise His man from the local folks, He don't need to send the "white" man to educate the natives in His ways.

Oh, by the way, there may be one exception, just maybe - the Mormon missionary.

 

1. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't mean they aren't there.

2. Many times they start out in the bigger cities and train the folks in the bigger cities, who go out to the 'littler' cities, etc.

3. Do you really think God gives a toot that you think He messed up by calling the 'white man'? Maybe He oughta step down from His throne and let you run things.

Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying......:BangHead: :tear:

 

Pat reply.
You forget, you're speaking to a native. I've been all over the country, mexdef. You haven't.

And have no intention of ever stepping into the muck of village trails to live with poor folks, eh ? Far cry from the God of Heaven leaving His riches to dwell in a dusty, obscure Roman occupied town and preach His kingdom to poor folks, not expecting to ride while others walk, but dirtying His own hands and feet in the same dust those He came to save walked on.

Who says I think He messed up by calling the 'white man' ? And where is your Scripture to show it is the 'white man' he called to be missionaries ? Sorry if I hurt your 'manifest destiny' mentality, massah.

[/quote]

ahhh...a point of agreement, if it doesn't offend your 'white manliness'.

:BangHead: :tear:

 

How dare you...preach the Word.

To be sure, in many cases, "bringing them in" has become a three ring circus of rock music, pizza parties and basketball games and other attractions. Nominal, carnal Christianity is rampant.

Getting genuine training in the things of God in the home is wonderful--if one has a true Christian home. Multitudes do not.

God is still calling His sheep back to the fold--regardless of the right-ness of our methodology--not one has been lost--save Judas Iscariot.

Jesus walked, sometimes sailed, in reaching the lost. He spent a lot of time reaching publicans and sinners. His disciples were sent out, walking for sure--to the lost sheep of Israel, then to the Gentiles. So, now we have buses. Jesus left them with a charge: go, preach, baptize, TEACH. Surely, we have compartmentalized and boxed(canned) what this charge means. We do need to think outside the box and examine the scripturalness of our practices--and then practice Church Discipline. But then, this would seriously reduce the membership.

A real dilemma--for the flesh!!!

Preach the Word--everyday, everywhere. Reprove, rebuke, exhort--with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.

Choose wisely,

Bro. James

 

Plant churches and evangelize without having to work a side job. Attract people to the Gospel who enjoy meeting foreigners but wouldn't listen to a national Christian. Teach English as a "native speaker" to folk who are afraid of religion but can use the excuse of "I'm learning English." Provide literature for free to national pastors struggling to make ends meet. Teach Bible school subjects, if one has advanced theological training, with knowledge that is simply unavailable to the average national (America has wonderful Christian resources).

I could go on for hours. But hey, I have to ge to bed so that tomorrow I can be the "colonial, mooching, intruding, unneeded" missionary pastor to the dear Japanese folk in my church tomorrow who Christ has saved through my witness. I would gladly "spend and be spent," as I have for 25 years, and die for the sake of my beloved Japanese.

Who would you die for? Anyone not a white person from your country? Your name (and mine) means "man sent from God." Who are you sent to? Anyone but white people?

 

WOW...

What presumption that all the thousands of BAPTIST missionaries are not called by God to go into missions.
When you get to Heaven, tell the apostle Paul that!
Or even try pulling that statement of with God.


Thus the dangers of Calvinism, folks.

Calvinism leads to this type of thinking.

I am glad my God sent His son into the world to share the Gospel with mankind.
I am glad for all the missionaries that listened to God instead of bad doctrine that says we don't need missionaries.

In this thread we have been told that missionaries are not from God, and now they are trying to convince us that children's ministries are not needed...

Yet churches are dying because of this type of teaching.
Old people die. When your church has no young people to replace them, your church will cease to exist. But that's OK right? I mean afterall, God must have predestined for churches to close their doors.

I am so glad that this type of thinking is in the minority among Bible Believing Baptists.

And that most of us wants to see people go to Heaven so much so that we support missions, and children's ministries.

But of course if you believe people the elect will get there with, or without someone sharing the Gospel with them, then that explains your lack of support for missions.

WOW... the things you see on BB.

 

Wrong. I did not say that all the thousands of BAPTIST missionaries are not called by God to go into missions. Some are. Some were. The question is on methodology, not their being God-called or not. Whether they were God-called or not, the methodology is what I am questioning.

Well, why don't you try doing that ? Because I sure don't read of the Apostle Paul sending out missionaries to win souls for Christ, nor did Peter say that.

Well, where are your extrabiblical records that pre-John Calvin Baptist churches were mission-minded ? Unless of course, you include the papacy.

Oh, come on, tinytim. You can do better than that. So now it boils down to you having a different God than Calvinists ? Not that I am a Calvinist, I am not. But this is what really creates the division and the anger, one side suggesting that his God is different than the other's.

Well, you probably need missionaries, God doesn't. He had the ultimate missionary in His Son, and His Son did what He was sent by the Father to do, no thanks to you, me, John Calvin, or Arminius.

You will be hard put to prove Sunday School for children is a Biblical doctrine, tinytim, but, with all due respects to you, prove it, from the Bible, that the education of children with regards to Scripture is something that was assigned to the church, the pastor, or the deacons.

And new churches coming up without missionaries. At least that is true among my people.

Oh, so you have the Godly authority to declare that as truth ? Funny, but there were some churches I have been to where there were very few young people but they have been existing in the same area for years, one had been there for more than two hundred years.

Secondly, I don't think it is anyone's church but Christ's. And when we would like to see something we started go on forever, that is when we cease to depend on the Spirit of God, and start depending on gimmicks and programs, and all that other stuff, just to make sure the church grows, and is constantly populated, but really, is it our worry ?

So, tell us, tinytim, why are the seven churches gone ? where is the Jerusalem church ? Where did the Antioch church go ? These were all churches that began at the great Pentecost era, and why do we not ask where they are ?

Did they die out because of lack of young people ? Or lack of "God-called" missionaries ? Or just a general lack of enthusiasm for God ?

Was God surprised that these churches no longer exist ? Was it God's plan for His churches to exist forever on earth ? Remember the Scripture that says "He does what He will in the army of heaven and on earth".

Nope, he did not predestine it, but He sure knows it's going to happen. Did He predestine Eve to sin, and Adam to be swayed, so He can play the mighty Redeemer ?

It used to be the majority, until modernism crept in back in the 1800's and Baptists split.

I figure there can be nobody more desirous of saving souls than God Himself, and He put that desire into action, and did exactly what He wanted, and stamped His success with the resurrection of His own Son.

So, in effect, you're saying that the blood of Christ, the will of God, and the death and resurrection of His Son, can attain what it was supposed to attain and be successful only IF the gospel is shared with people ? The missionaries, they're the final link ? Without them and without the sharing of the gospel, no one is going to heaven ? So, in effect, God was a respecter of persons when He brought Enoch to heaven, Moses to heaven, Elijah to heaven ?

Yeah, never ceases to amaze me.

 

All the blue above are my thoughts.