How Dare You....

They probably did after the printing machine was invented.

 

What is wrong with tracts... other than the fact that we are trying to win souls?

 

Is it GOING to win souls? It alienates more people than it "wins."

 

Tell that to all the ones that have came to Christ through a tract.

Granted, not all tracts are great.. I don't like the Chick tracts, but even them, a lot of people have been saved after reading them..

Why are you limiting God?
God can use anything he want as a tool to win people to Him.

 

*Can* God use stripper-led worship (or was that another thread?)? Okay, maybe I am speaking from personal experience. I just cringe and feel ashamed when i see some of the heavy handed "ACCEPT CHRIST OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL" stuff out there. That type of thing has developed such a bad reputation a lot of people will not let it in their places of business, countries, etc. If you actually feel led to do something like the tracts, you go for it guy. I will blush and cross to the other side of the street. As long as you don't fall for the clown-led worship notions!

 

Obviously, God will not use sin, but handing our tracts with the plan of salvation on them is not a sin...

So what is wrong with that...
Handing a tract to someone is the least pressured type of evangelism..

I too don't like the "turn or burn, angry street preacher" but we have to tell them some way or another, that if they don't accept Christ, they will go to Hell... do you deny that?

Do you deny that unless a person accepts Christ as savior, they will go to Hell?

 

webdog's in bold.
mine in italics.

>>Would God call them if they were going to do it wrong? That is what I understand you are saying.<<

>>The thing is, how do you know God called them ? The mormon missionary left home and hearth, and they say they were called to the field by God. Do you think so ? Now, here comes this Methodist missionary, he says he was called by God. Then here's this Calvinist Baptist, he says he was called by God, then comes this Arminian Baptist, says he was called by God...you think they were really all called by God ? To go and preach different gospels and different theologies ? <<

<<We are commanded to witness to people so they can be saved... The Great Commission>>

>>Here is what this thing you call Great Commission says: Go ye into all the nation:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19)
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15).

It says teach, and Mark has it down as preach the gospel. Nothing there about getting people saved. The gospel is good news of a salvation already finished for a people whom the Lord prepared for Himself. Any salvation it brings is timely in essence, not eternal, because eternal salvation is all of the Lord, none of man, it is a single undertaking done by a merciful God for His undeserving people.<<

<<
Most of the New Testament is about missions to the world.
Who needs extrabiblical records to prove something the Bible proves.
>>

<<Missions to the world ? I'm sorry, but I do not see any missionary in the New Testament other than Christ Himself who came to a small part of the world, and Paul and Barnabas who visited places where believers already existed, to edify the members, to organize them, and to teach them. And reading Paul's systematic treatise on Soteriology to the Romans you come away understanding that he clearly taught the doctrine of grace. All of God. None of man.>>

>>I am not suggesting that Calvinists have a different God.
I am saying that God wants us to tell the lost about Christ.
We don't know who is to be saved.
>>

Well, having said what you said right after you referred to Calvinism in a manner which sounds detrimental, one can't help but come to the conclusion that you think Calvinists and those who adhere to the Doctrine of Grace worship an alien God.

One problem I see with your view, friend, is that if Christ came to seek and to save that which is lost, and He did it successfully, unless you want to insist He failed, then who are the lost ? There are those who are born at enmity with Him here in time because of their fallen nature, yes, and the Holy Spirit does His part in the salvation plan by regenerating them accordingly.

I sort of agree with your statement that "we don't know who will be saved" but would modify it to "we don't know who are saved". We don't know whose names are actually in the Book of Life, since none of us were there when it was written, but we know that it has names of God's people in it.

And for that reason I think none of us has the right to judge anyone as damned by virtue of that person's theology, life, creed, race, tongue, or any of the yardsticks we use, and neither can we boast that we are saved and heaven bound because of our theology, creed, upbringing, life, or anything else.

>>
See, here again, I hear you saying that God doesn't call missionaries.
Is that what you are saying?

God through His sovereignty decided to call people into missions. He could have used rocks, but he decided to use believers.


<<

No. I am saying that God doesn't need missionaries. That's different from calling. He calls because He wants to, not because He needs to. People talk like God couldn't do anything without missionaries. Like He couldn't reach whom He wants to reach without the missionaries, so much so that it sounds like from the beginning of the world to the time when Paul came.

I'm saying that God has His people all over the world, had had His people from the beginning of time, and His saving them never depends on gospel preaching, gospel preacher, or any means save the blood of the Lamb of Glory.

>>Of course you know that Sunday School is abiblical. Are you telling me that your church teaches children the meat before they are taught the milk... Do you start off teaching them about Noah, or about Justification.
Children learn different, and in a perfect world, Children will learn from their mature, Christian parents, but we don't live in a perfect world. How is having classes for children sin? You are asserting it is wrong. It is not up to me to prove it is right. The Bible doesn't say one way or another.
<<

And just because the Bible is silent, it's alright to do it ? Sin is missing the mark, friend. Doing anything not according to God's written and revealed plan, (and in this case He has a written and revealed plan, which is that the Godly education of children is the responsibility of parents, not the church) is missing the mark.

>> If your church doesn't want to have a children's ministry, fine with me.
But don't condemn me, because you have no biblical support.
>>

Wherever did I condemn you ? Just because I said something that rubs you the wrong way, have I condemned you ? As for Biblical supporty, yes I do have Biblical support. Deuteronomy 6:1-6. The parents, not the nation of Israel, in the New Testament, the parents, not spiritual Israel.

<<I am glad churches are being planted...
How are they planted? Isn't that a form of missions?
>>

Nope. And I didn't say churches are being planted. They come about because of Primitive Baptists who remained and stayed and came Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday even when there was no one to preach to them, no one to lead them sing, no young people, and there were only two, or three, or ten of them, and God, in His divine love for His own, added to them, according as He wills, not according to the labor of the missionary, or according to the missionary's sacrifices.

>>Must have some very old members...:laugh:
Young people must have been added somewhere.
<<

No, the point is that the church doesn't need to have young people, or missionaries, or hellfire and brimstone, Bible-slapping, feet thumping, pulpit slamming, singsonging preachers. The church needs God's sustenance, and God's rain, and God's addition, and God's preservation.
If He decides the church goes, then the church goes, and not all the angels in heaven can stop that, and not all the brightest plans of missionaries on "how to win souls for Christ" can reverse His decision.

 

>>Christ is not an idiot. He doesn't plant churches to see them fail.
Our worry is to witness to the lost, plant the seed, water them, and let Christ grow His church. But when we fail to witness (missions) we short circuit Christ's plan.
<<

Wherever did I say Christ is an idiot ? I keep saying He doesn't need any help, and you all keep saying He does, now which one of us is saying Christ is an idiot ?

>>Still in Jerusalem. :laugh: Just under different names.
<<

Yeah, right.

<<I assume some still exist in these areas<<

You assume. Great.

<<There are still Christian churches there. And I am sure they allow young people in.
<<


Yeah, and what brand of Christian churches ? And again, you assume.


<<The ones that ceased to exist quit serving Christ.
Remember the warnings in Rev. to the churches and how if they didn't serve Him, he would remove the candlestick.
Churches die, because they quit serving Christ.
<<

Doctrine and practices are primarily the reasons I remember for the warnings to the churches. They were serving Christ, or so they thought.

<<Yes, that is what I am saying.. God designed it that way.
He is still sovereign, but he designed it to use us to reach the lost.
I realize you disagree, but at least you understand what I believe.
>>

You should reflect carefully on what you are saying, friend. God designed the salvation of His people solely on the basis of Christ's sacrifice, not on the ability of preachers and preaching. Yet I am sure you will be the first one to stand up and rebuke anyone who adds anything to the finished work of Christ.

<<Without Christians sharing the Gospel, souls will go to Hell.
Everyone has a job to do, mine is to pastor the church where He has placed me. Others are to become missionaries, others teach in Sunday School, others run food pantries, others are evangelists, others are musically inclined, but working together, we all accomplish the goal of winning souls to Christ.
>>

Oh, so you're giving the workaround answer ? You never said no one will get to heaven, but you're saying souls will go to hell ? Again, you are close to blasphemy there, tinytim. You're actually saying unless Christians share the gospel of Christ, God is unable to save anyone. You're saying that God is absolutely powerless, the blood shed on the cross meaningless, doesn't save anyone, unless there is a self-sacrificing Christian to go share the gospel.



<<No.>>

So, which gospel, and which preacher, then shared the gospel to Enoch, Elijah, Moses in order for God to be able to bring them to heaven, and that without physical death, pray tell.

<<I know you are PB, are there other Baptist groups out there that believe like you? >>

Maybe, I don't know. But if God is true to Himself, there should be those out there who do not have to be PB but believe in the total, absolute, and trustworthy ability of God to save those He intended to save through Christ apart from any human means or effort.

 

Yesyesyesyes

 

Pinoy, those were my words, not webdogs... Just to let you know.

 

At this point we have definitely hijacked the thread, so will start a new one.

 

We finally agree Amity!!!
Let's start a new one.

 

Ann, it seems pretty clear that the men who travelled in the early days of the church did so at the behest of the Holy Spirit, not the mission board.

 

No, I have not read the whole thread. But you obviously have not read the Bible with understanding. The Gospel of John was designed as what we call a tract. Read what John wrote about the purpose for his writing.

 

This is a false dichotomy. Do you actually think the mission board recruited me? I was called and sent by the Holy Spirit, not by the mission board. And then I was sent from my church, just like Paul and Barnabas were, THROUGH a mission board, not BY a mission board.

 

Looks to have started on page 3, and I helped it along.

Thanks for clarification.

 

You're doing it again! Don't you think we can tell a difference between the "call" of a cult member (mormon) and a Christian? This example you repeatedly use causes me to think one of the following is true...

• You think there is no difference between us and mormons.
• You think that our engaging in missions is as heretical as mormon's theology.
• You don't believe we're capable of understanding that when one's view of God is so flawed as to be a false religion, their call cannot be valid. SO....are we a false religion in your book, or do you think we simply have no discernment?
• You just don't seem to get it...don't you realize how insulting your above statement is to these missionaries who have spent their lives fulfilling the Great Commission?

So...since "it's not our job to save people," it's OK to not obey God's command and preach the Good news? If you torture logic that badly, methinks you violate the Geneva Convention. This theological two-step sounds like a justification for laziness rather than a "biblical" understanding of un-missions.

• Sin is an affront to a holy God. Do you honestly think that gathering together and learning God's Word together is SIN?!?!?! That is absolutely a ludicrous statement...absolutely indefensible. You owe God an apology.
• Would you PLEASE tell me what we are supposed to do in a post-Christian culture with all these kids whose parents are not Christians and do not teach their kids about God. I guess we can all thank God that they aren't our kids. We can have a "you're all going to hell" party. God forbid we should teach them about Jesus. That would be sin. Of all the tripe you guys are putting out there, this might be the worst. I can't believe that you are calling the gathering together to learn the Word of God Sinful. What a load.

Broken record time...you are still ignoring Romans 10:

The more we interact, the more I'm beginning to think...

• Primitive Baptists are dying out. Wonder why? In a few more generations, there probably won't be any. Wonder why?
• PB theology is borne out of a desire to look down on everyone else as "unscriptural." It's also a theology that may have been formed to justify inaction regarding the Great commission. It's also a theology that may have been formed to justify a church that has stagnated. When that arrogance, stagnation, inaction, and refusal to Preach the Gospel is codified through a theological stance, then followers can feel justified that their actions are God-ordained.
• PB theology is as fatalistic as Islam: "Allah wills it," they say. "God's already saved everyone. Why should we do anything?" you say.