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How Dead are Your Logs?

webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
It is not the same as free will choice and some mythical decision.
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Ever watch "mythbusters"?

Isa 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.


Myth busted!

We can see that even a "dead log" can reason with God...so this takes us back to exactly what "dead" means. Is it corpse, or separation, in the same way our soul is separated from our body when we die, our souls are spiritually separated from God? f we are "dead in sin" and "dead to sin", they both must mean the same thing. If it's "corpse", then believers never sin!

Simile
SIMILE, n. sim'ily. [L.] In rhetoric, similitude; a comparison of two thing which, however different in other respects, have some strong point or points of resemblance; by which comparison, the character or qualities of a thing are illustrated or presented in an impressive light. Thus, the eloquence of Demosthenes was like a rapid torrent; that of Cicero, like a large stream that glides smoothly along with majestic tranquility.
 
A

Andrew Walling

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
There are many theories and notions floating around in the Church as to men likened unto dead logs floating down the river of life helpless, unable to respond even to God’s offer of salvation without first being regenerated. Those holding to such a view generally maintain that He has chosen some men apart from any and all actions or efforts on their part, and that God empowers those that He has foreordained to salvation with the power to be able to respond to His predetermined plan.

We also have on this list those proclaim that men are all born in a state likened unto a dead log floating down a stream, basically the same at this point in their theology, as the Calvinistic model, but state that God has granted to ALL men an ability at some mysterious point and time in life which includes the power and abilities requisite of choosing God’s offer of salvation. Great effort is made to develop a Scriptural basis for the belief that ALL men have been granted the necessary power and abilities to either choose or refuse the offer God has to offer, again granted to ALL men.

As I lay upon my bed last night, a Scripture came to me that seems to clearly debunk both ideas, especially in the area of the notion of men being likened unto dead logs that must be empowered by God to receive salvation. Read carefully the following passage and see if problems do not arise in your mind as well as to the validity of either of the views in question.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, TO ‘THEM’ GAVE HE POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:

It would appear to me that this passage clearly places the ‘receiving’ of the offer of Christ antecedent to ‘receiving the power’ to become the sons of God. If men are but dead logs floating down the stream of life, unable without special empowerment from God to enable them to receive His offer of salvation, regardless if the empowerment is just to the elect or made provisionally to all, any such notion is in direct antipodes with the plain teaching of this text. Does not this text make it clear that men clearly have the power requisite of ‘receiving God’s offer’ as sinners, and that the power they receive is not ability to receive, but power to be transformed ‘subsequent’ to receiving this gift of salvation from God? How can a dead logs receive Christ, ANTECEDENT to receiving the power to become the sons of God?
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I can understand when a person takes scripture out of context, but out of sentence? You should ponder the complete sentence and thought as you lay there wondering.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 KJV)

Note that the qualifier "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" modifies "as many as received him". The qualifier in past tense indicates that those who received Him were already in a state of new birth, not that "of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This passage does exactly opposite what you claim. Rather than a defense of you position it actually denies your position and supports the model you intend to attack.

You have neglected simple hermenuetics in your pondering and substituted philosophy for scripture. I would recommend 2 Timothy 2:15.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Note that the qualifier "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" modifies "as many as received him". The qualifier in past tense indicates that those who received Him were already in a state of new birth, not that "of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
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You have it so backwards it's not even funny...
 
B

Brother Bob

New Member
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 KJV)

Note that the qualifier "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" modifies "as many as received him". The qualifier in past tense indicates that those who received Him were already in a state of new birth, not that "of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
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If the Scripture had of stopped here and there was not more, then you and I both would be lost for we were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, without God, having no hope in the world. Thank God He sent His apostles out again after He arose from the grave unto the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature, not just Israel.
 
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Andrew Walling

New Member
webdog said:
You have it so backwards it's not even funny...
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Perhaps you would like to exegete the passage to substantiate your claim against me. It isn't so because you say it, you have to prove your assertion. Here is the passage:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 KJV)


Brother Bob said:
If the Scripture had of stopped here and there was not more, then you and I both would be lost for we were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, without God, having no hope in the world. Thank God He sent His apostles out again after He arose from the grave unto the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature, not just Israel.
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I'm not sure if you are addressing me. If you are, I'm not the one that stopped in mid-sentence. I was pointing out what you just stated: We must take into account all of scripture, not just what we want to read into it.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Perhaps you would like to exegete the passage to substantiate your claim against me. It isn't so because you say it, you have to prove your assertion. Here is the passage:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Joh 1:12-13 KJV)
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I know the passage quite well, thank you.

Our problem is the fact you separate regeneration and faith in Christ as two separate acts. The Bible teaches us they are one in the same, exactly what this passage shows.
 
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Andrew Walling

New Member
webdog said:
I know the passage quite well, thank you.
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I didn't ask you to exegete it for you but for my sake and others if you find fault with what I said. Don't you work for the edification of others?


webdog said:
Our problem is the fact you separate regeneration and faith in Christ as two separate acts. The Bible teaches us they are one in the same, exactly what this passage shows.
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Actually I don't. Temporaly speaking I agree that this occurs at the same time. The rebirth is the process in which faith is generated. Logically speaking the rebirth occurs and we respond in faith to God's calling. The best example of this rebirth process is in Eze 36:25-27 which coorelates with Jesus' words to Nicodemus:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Joh 3:5-6 KJV)
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Andrew Walling said:
I didn't ask you to exegete it for you but for my sake and others if you find fault with what I said. Don't you work for the edification of others?




Actually I don't. Temporaly speaking I agree that this occurs at the same time. The rebirth is the process in which faith is generated. Logically speaking the rebirth occurs and we respond in faith to God's calling. The best example of this rebirth process is in Eze 36:25-27 which coorelates with Jesus' words to Nicodemus:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Joh 3:5-6 KJV)
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How can you claim regeneration is a process leading to faith while claiming they occur at the same time? Once you have faith in Christ, you are born again...regenerated. No process, justificaiton is an event.
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Andrew Walling: I can understand when a person takes scripture out of context, but out of sentence? You should ponder the complete sentence and thought as you lay there wondering.
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HP: Sorry for overlooking your post.

The portion “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” does not negate the fact I made in the least. This part of the text is just telling you that it is God that has designed the plan of salvation and chosen the means by which it is accomplished, not the will of man, the blood, or the flesh.

This portion of the verse in no way indicates that those that received Him were already in a state of new birth.
 
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Andrew Walling

New Member
It truly saddens me that I am not seeing a desire to engage in meaningful discussion but rather argumentation. Assertions that go unsubstatiated in this manner exhibit a lack of respect for others and provide no edification. I have no desire to engage in something unedifying.

BB: How dead is my log, daggone this is exciting stuff.
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Point substantiated. May God continue to have mercy on us all.


Heavenly Pilgrim said:



HP: Sorry for overlooking your post.

The portion “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” does not negate the fact I made in the least. This part of the text is just telling you that it is God that has designed the plan of salvation and chosen the means by which it is accomplished, not the will of man, the blood, or the flesh.

This portion of the verse in no way indicates that those that received Him were already in a state of new birth.
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Pilgrim, I want to make it clear that my above comments in this post were not directed at you.

I believe the grammar and tense in the original Greek (and even English) do bring question to your statements. So that I am clear, I was referring specifically to "which were born". In any case, what I have presented brings evidence, of at least the possiblilty, that your assertions are incorrect. May I suggest that we look to more clear passages of scripture or that we be careful to engage the text properly with brotherly love. As I mentioned above, I have no desire to be unedifying and I am concerned about some of the attitudes I have experienced on this board.

My apologies ahead of time that I may not be able to respond before Monday.
 
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Brother Bob

New Member
Andrew; Point substantiated. May God continue to have mercy on us all.
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He already did have mercy on you, so lighten up and answer the questions instead of picking on others, or if its too much beneath you then just leave.

My humoreous remark was to HP and Web and didn't concern you at all, but you chose to attempt to condemn it and therefore, being that this is an open forum and you used my remark and iniatials, then I shall respond in kind.

And Walling; My remarks are directed at you, but I do not remember whatsoever addressing you before, so if you can't say something nice then don't say it, or be prepared for a response. Hope you learned something from this little exchange.:thumbsup:
 
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Andrew Walling

New Member
Brother Bob said:
He already did have mercy on you, so lighten up and answer the questions instead of picking on others, or if its too much beneath you then just leave.

My humoreous remark was to HP and Web and didn't concern you at all, but you chose to attempt to condemn it and therefore, being that this is an open forum and you used my remark and iniatials, then I shall respond in kind.

And Walling; My remarks are directed at you, but I do not remember whatsoever addressing you before, so if you can't say something nice then don't say it, or be prepared for a response. Hope you learned something from this little exchange.:thumbsup:
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I apologize that this sounded the way it did involving you. I didn't mean to involve you as one not substantiating claims. Perhaps I should have pointed out more clearly that there is a "beating the dead horse" syndrome on this thread. I apologize if I offended you.
 
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Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
BB: And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Influence and Decision), amen

HP:Keeping those old logs rolling.........:)

I like that verse and your comments. So many would have us to believe it is coercion and necessity. To partake of the water of life freely supports clearly the idea of a will free from force or coercion of any kind. It is just as you say. God gives to man the influence, and it is up to man to respond by making a freewill decision.
 
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