George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Sorry I got lost. I know the general Calvinist system but could you please answer the questions precisely?
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How did God “constitute” mankind after the fall?
- Thread starter canadyjd
- Start date
Sorry I got lost. I know the general Calvinist system but could you please answer the questions precisely?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I answered directly. What was vague about my answer?
Perhaps you are not getting the answer you expected?
peace to you
The answer is obvious, Calvinism falsely claims, because of the Fall, all persons are unable to seek God and trust in Christ unless enabled by irresistible grace. So, in Romans 11, where God hardens hearts, they post deflection to hide the fact, if their doctrine were true, God would not have needed to harden hearts to facilitate the spread of the gospel to Gentiles.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
It's hard to talk to someone who's so quick on the snappy accusations.
Van,
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
No Calvinist teaches that, but Calvinism does. The Calvinist just cannot face his own system all the way.
Why post, Sir? I clearly said that Calvinism asserts God predestines (ordains) whatsoever comes to pass. It is right there in the confess. For you to suggest I am misrepresenting Calvinism is reprehensible. To say "no Calvinist teaches that" only acknowledges Calvinism denies the logical necessity of their exhaustive determinism belief. You can claim God does not compel sin by imposing total spiritual inability till the cows come home, but that is like claiming white is blue, or wet is dry.
You added the word predestines, didn't you???? no need to lie. it was bad enough you tried to sneak it in...BUT NOW YOU DENY IT,LOL
HERE IS THE QUOTE;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
It does not add predstines now does it? You even go so far as to attempt to add to scripture itself. YOU CAN STOP IT, WE ARE NOT FOOLED.
YOU ARE TRYING TO MISREPRESENT CALVINISM,DOING JUST THAT, AND IT IS REPREHENSIBLE.
Let no one say, being tempted -- 'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one, and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death. James 1:13-15 YLT
Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14 YLT
he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8
The man created in the image of his creator has not yet sinned.
Genesis 3:1 YLT And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, 'Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called 'Devil,' and 'the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Rev 12:9 YLT
Is that speaking of the same serpent? Is it that same serpent the same devil spoken of in Heb 2:14 and 1 John 3:8?
The man has not yet sinned. At that very moment is sin by man and the death brought forth by that sin necessary for the destruction of the devil and his works?
Even before God said, "Let there be light," did the devil and his works need to be destroyed? Before the foundation of the world, how was God going to destroy the devil and his works? Was the plan to destroy the devil and his works going to require sin that would bring forth the death? Before the foundation of the world was, man, created in the image of his creator with the woman taken from the man necessary for the manifestation of the Son of God in order the devil and his works could be destroyed?
I wonder what John Calvin would think of this? I wonder what all of you think about of this? Christ as of a Lamb without spot and without blemish was going to die, shed his life's blood before the man was created.
WHY?
Exactly what destroys the devil and his works? Exactly how is death, the last enemy, destroyed?
Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14 YLT
he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8
The man created in the image of his creator has not yet sinned.
Genesis 3:1 YLT And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, 'Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?'
and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called 'Devil,' and 'the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Rev 12:9 YLT
Is that speaking of the same serpent? Is it that same serpent the same devil spoken of in Heb 2:14 and 1 John 3:8?
The man has not yet sinned. At that very moment is sin by man and the death brought forth by that sin necessary for the destruction of the devil and his works?
Even before God said, "Let there be light," did the devil and his works need to be destroyed? Before the foundation of the world, how was God going to destroy the devil and his works? Was the plan to destroy the devil and his works going to require sin that would bring forth the death? Before the foundation of the world was, man, created in the image of his creator with the woman taken from the man necessary for the manifestation of the Son of God in order the devil and his works could be destroyed?
I wonder what John Calvin would think of this? I wonder what all of you think about of this? Christ as of a Lamb without spot and without blemish was going to die, shed his life's blood before the man was created.
WHY?
Exactly what destroys the devil and his works? Exactly how is death, the last enemy, destroyed?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Really? You think I’m making “snappy accusations”. That certainly isn’t my intention.
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Note the claim "ordain" does not mean "predestine." On and on folks, one falsehood after another. Disgusting
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
What, precisely, about my post did you not understand? Tell me and I’ll try to be clearer.
peace to you
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Gordon Clark (Presbyterian) shows that God cannot sin. Because sin is a transgression of a Law. And there are no other gods whose laws he must obey, or that he must answer to. So his causing a person to sin is not sin. We see many times God causing Pharaoh, Ahab, and others to sin. Even providing the means that caused them to sin. Even his blinding of the Jews causes them to sin because as Paul says, whatever is not of faith is sin.
So all that happens in the world, good or bad is under God's direct control and moves creation towards his given end. In this Clark says man is the author of sin and incurs the guilt but God is the cause of him doing so.
So all that happens in the world, good or bad is under God's direct control and moves creation towards his given end. In this Clark says man is the author of sin and incurs the guilt but God is the cause of him doing so.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I disagree God causes anyone to sin. Mankind acts according to their sinful nature. God did not cause it, nor is He responsible for it.
Sin is not just violating the Law, though the Law reveals the sin. Sin is “missing the mark” of God’s expectations.
peace to you
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
He caused the entire race to sin when he imputed Adam's sin to them. Babies die because of this long before they ever consciously sin. See Paul in Romans 5.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is the argument others have made. That is, since God determined the consequences of the fall and part of that consequence is a sin nature, it makes God the cause of sin. That is untrue.
God acted according to His nature in determining the consequences of the fall. His nature of holiness, righteousness, and justice laid the foundation of the consequences, but it does not mean He “causes” anyone to sin. Lay that “cause” with Adam.
That would be like blaming a judge for a man being a non-engaged father because the judge sentenced him to prison. The man is responsible for the consequences, just as Adam is responsible for the consequences of the fall.
peace to you
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
God created Adam as sinless. But once given the law, he chose to break it. God knew this would happen so in that sense he caused Adam's sin.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
In no “sense” did God cause Adam to sin. Adam is 100% responsible for his sin and also the whole human race obtaining a sin nature that separates them from God.
peace to you
Dave, Dave, Dave!
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Btw... Welcome back, where have you been?... Brother Glen
