How Do baptists See/Define the Church of God?

[JesusFan]

You keep saying this, over and over and over again.
It is your opinion. You don't have any Scriptural basis for it.
If you believe it to be true then why not back it up with Scripture.

Are you part of an IBF church though?

If yes, THAT would explain why the refusal to see the clear scriptures myself and others have posted on this!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Why do keep on with this rant, when we show you it is not Biblical. At least support it with Scripture.
1. All believers do belong to the Bride. No objection to calling all believers the Bride of Christ, the family of God, the Kingdom.
2. But they are not The Church. You have no Scriptural support for this.

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: (Col 1:24)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23)
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:12-13)
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Eph 4:4)

Christ is not a polygamist, there is One saviour, One body, One bride. You claim that a universal church would be a monster, but the true monster would have many bodies and one head. Instead of taking your doctrine strictly from a dictionary definition of one word, compare Scripture with Scripture & exegete your theology from the Word and allow His word to interpret the meaning of the text. God says the church is the body & that all believers are baptized by the Spirit into that body. Wasn't that easy?

 

[DHK]

Are you part of an IBF church though?

If yes, THAT would explain why the refusal to see the clear scriptures myself and others have posted on this!

Quote yourself where you have explained Scripture to support your view.

 

[DHK]

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: (Col 1:24)

First I am glad to see someone engage in this conversation with a bit of Scripture. Good for you.
Now, look at CONTEXT:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Colossians 1:23)
--He is speaking to the believers as Colosse.
"If you continue in the faith," he says, "and be not moved from the gospel"..."whereof I am made a minister"...."who now rejoice...for you"..."and fill up...of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church."
--He is speaking directly to the believers at Colosse. The church that he is referring to is their church. They would not take it any other way. He (Paul) suffered for them. He did it for Christ. His sufferings would be an encouragement and a teacher to them. Look at the next verse:

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Colossians 1:25)
--minister means servant. He was fulfilling God's will in being a servant to them in ministering to them in this way. This was a personal letter to the Colossians. It is applicable to us in that it is applicable to all Biblical local churches.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23)

--This is a good illustration of a generic word.
Which husband and which wife is Paul referring to?
Is the husband Apollos? Timothy? Luke? Peter? Which one? Which one is he referring to? The word is used generically, that is a singular noun that is used collectively to refer to all husbands. The noun "wife" is used the same way. And the word "church" is used the same way. Christ is the head not only of the Ephesian church but of every local church, just as the husbands in Ephesus were to be examples of all husbands being the heads of their wives. He just was not referring to one specific husband or one specific church.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:12-13)

An excellent chapter.
Paul is describing the working of a local church. In the above verse he describes the unity of it--baptized into one local body. He describes all the parts of the body as members each having its own particular function--something that is not possible in a U-church. This verse in particular is impossible to apply to a U-church and is only applicable in a local church:

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. (1 Corinthians 12:26)
--You have no idea when believers on the other side of the world suffer and you don't suffer with them or rejoice with them. It is a local church setting.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Eph 4:4)

--Applicable only to a local church. I don't have the same doctrine as Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., even though there may be believers among them. He was speaking to the church at Ephesus, and among them there was to be one faith one body, one Spirit, etc.

Christ is not a polygamist, there is One saviour, One body, One bride. You claim that a universal church would be a monster, but the true monster would have many bodies and one head. Instead of taking your doctrine strictly from a dictionary definition of one word, compare Scripture with Scripture & exegete your theology from the Word and allow His word to interpret the meaning of the text. God says the church is the body & that all believers are baptized by the Spirit into that body. Wasn't that easy?

I have to go now. I don't remember posting this.
All I can say is that God is not a polygamist. He has only one bride the bride of Christ.
Christ dwells in you; he dwells in me, as he dwells in most on this board. Yet there is only one Christ. You can conceive of that concept cant' you? Then why is it so difficult for you to conceive that Christ can be the head of every Biblical local church, as the Bible says he is?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

DHK,
One statement really stood out to me, "baptized into one local body". According to this statement, you believe the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the local church. Such doctrine is unfathomable in its foolishness. At what point in the membership process does the Spirit baptize us & at what point do we become unbaptized? If we are baptized into the local church, then there must be a time when we are in need of rebaptizing by the Spirit when we cease attending that church. In fact, Scripture never equates baptism with local church membership.

Multiple bodies= multiple brides. There is ONE body, ONE bride, ONE baptism. These are clearly written doctrines that speak against your narrow interpretation of the church. Transforming every local assembly into individual brides, which your doctrine must do when followed to its logical conclusion, makes Christ into a polygamist. The church is both local & universal just as Jesus Christ is both God & man.

 

[jbh28]

The "Church" you advocate for, is fractured, divided, and filled with people who believe error at best, heresy at worst.

Question, would you consider a heretic a believer?

 

[Tom Butler]

It "purpose' is that it is the Body of Christ in heaven and upon the earth!

In heaven its the Assembly of the First Born, and here on earth it is scattered throughout local churches/denominations/lone ranger Christians etc!

So, the only purpose of the U-church is to simply exist.

Not worship
Not fellowship
Not preaching
Not evangelizing
Not observing the Lord's Supper
Not anything.
Just exist?

 

[Tom Butler]

Question, would you consider a heretic a believer?

I believe it is possible. For instance, I believe that some Roman Catholics are saved, despite their Church's heretical doctrines, and despite their agreement with them.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Eph 4:4)

Then there is the next verse:One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Is this baptism Spirit baptism or water baptism? Paul says there's only one kind.

 

[Alive in Christ]

michael-acts17:11, you posted...

Christ is not a polygamist, there is One saviour, One body, One bride. You claim that a universal church would be a monster, but the true monster would have many bodies and one head. Instead of taking your doctrine strictly from a dictionary definition of one word, compare Scripture with Scripture & exegete your theology from the Word and allow His word to interpret the meaning of the text. God says the church is the body & that all believers are baptized by the Spirit into that body. Wasn't that easy?

You would think that it would be easy for ANYONE to understand, but for some reason these dear ones are unable to.

The scriptures supporting the universal church have been given over and over and over again..., and yet they fight on against it.

Oh well...

 

[Iconoclast]

I hope you didn't read too much into my earlier post, Iconoclast. Your last paragraph seems to show that you may have done .

I am certainly not condoning the belief that says, "I belong to the universal church and that is all I need. I don 't see local church membership as important." (I have actually heard people say things like that when challenged about local church membership!) If you thought I was condoning such a belief, it seems to me that the term "universal church" must mean different things to different people. The baptist confessions of faith I have access to do use the phrase. For example:

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 26, part 1:
The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Heb. 12:23; Col. 1:18; Eph. 1:10, 22-23; 5:23, 27, 32


"We Believe" - 1966 Baptist Affirmation of Faith:
The Nature of the Church
WE BELIEVE that the Universal Church is the innumerable company of God's elect in every age, who have been, are, or will be called out of the power of Satan to God, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and redeemed from sin through the blood of Christ. This Church will endure to the end, and will be complete and perfect in the day of Christ.
Matt. 16.:18; John 17:24 Ephesians 3:14-15; Acts 2:47; 26:18; Eph. 5:25-27; Phil. 1:6; Col. 1:12-14; Hebrews 12:23; Rev. 7:9-17

It is the duty of all believers, walking in the fear of the Lord, to unite with local churches, for their own sanctification, and the maintenance of gospel witness.

Such churches, having the presence of Christ as head, are responsible to him for their own administra*tion, and in this respect are independent of every other form of control, whether of Church or State. They have the fulness of God, and to them is committed the stewardship of the Gospel, the defence of the truth, the discipline of disorderly members, the appointment of officers, and the administration of the ordinances.
Mat. 18:15-20; Eph. 1:22-23; Acts 13:1-4; 1 Cor. 5; 2 Thess. 3:6; 1 John 4:1; Rev. 2 and 3.
​

Thanks for your reply, and God bless you!

David,
I know you do not buy into the error side of this discussion,I enjoy your solid posts. I am working through this area still.
I hold to the 1689...and yet I am re-working my understanding of the church.
Your very fine post and quotes are very good.....I guess you could say I am being a bit of a stickler here....getting very technical here.....trying to seperate out what scripture says....and how the reformers might have strayed a bit, or rather did not maintain the original teaching of scripture on the church. One book I am re-reading goes into detail on this topic...very interesting indeed!:wavey::wavey:

 

[Tom Butler]

Christ is not a polygamist, there is One saviour, One body, One bride

In I Cor 12, Paul talks about the body. In v.13 he talks about being baptized into the body. The correct translation is "In one spirit we are all baptized into the body" This is not the Holy Spirit,and the baptism is water baptism.

It must be water baptism, because Paul said there is only one baptism (Eph 4:5) And Jesus' Great Commission included the command to baptize. Water baptism.

Now, a few verses later (12:28) Paul says "YOU (FBC Corinth) are THE body of Christ...."

In 1:2 Paul writes "unto THE church of God which is at Corinth..."

So, it appears that the Corinthian congregation is both THE church of God and THE body of Christ. Not a church, not a body, but THE church and THE body. A local church, by the way.

So, if that's the way Paul described the Corinthian congregation, it would make sense to apply the same description to your home church--Geyer Springs First Baptist Church. THE church of God and THE body of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you would say today you are not a member of a church? Based on what you just said, your church(assembly) doesn't exist today.

and the universal church will gather together with Christ in heaven.
No, not sure what you are getting at with this?

jbh28,

We agree some...and do not agree a bit also.In the first article you linked to,he points out that only a couple of times is the word for church used in a general sense.
This alone points to the correct way to approach the topic in that the over-whelming mass of scripture texts.

for example from heb13

7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation

17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

jbh....all of these kind of commands cannot be followed in any universal church idea.

Individual church members when not assembled do not cease from being part of a local church......but they are only a part.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Tom Butler

You posted....

So, the only purpose of the U-church is to simply exist.

Not worship
Not fellowship
Not preaching
Not evangelizing
Not observing the Lord's Supper
Not anything.
Just exist?

Tom, who are these *christians* you speak of who dont worsip God, who never fellowsip with other christians, who dont preach or evangelize and who never observe any sacraments?

That is a description of LOST people. Why bring them up into the conversation?

We are discussing Gods victorious worshipfull universal church, which is filled with Spirit born BELEIVERS who DO practice those things.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Then there is the next verse:One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Is this baptism Spirit baptism or water baptism? Paul says there's only one kind.

It is speaking of the true baptism of the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was a type of the true spiritual baptism. How can one go from a spiritual Lord to a spiritual faith to a physical baptism? The eternal, almighty Lord, the one true & eternal faith, & temporal water baptism. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. These are three pillars of salvation. The true baptism is the sealing work of the Holy Spirit that binds us eternally to God & makes us one with the body of Christ. The only reason I can see for your interpretation is if you believe in water baptismal regeneration. If you do, then I understand. If you don't, then I don't see how you have come to that interpretation.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Are there unregenerate persons in the church & body of Christ? I have certainly witnessed church members who were saved well after they joined with the church. The Spirit does not baptize the unsaved into the body of Christ.

 

[jbh28]

jbh28,

We agree some...and do not agree a bit also.In the first article you linked to,he points out that only a couple of times is the word for church used in a general sense.
This alone points to the correct way to approach the topic in that the over-whelming mass of scripture texts.

for example from heb13




jbh....all of these kind of commands cannot be followed in any universal church idea.

Individual church members when not assembled do not cease from being part of a local church......but they are only a part.

That's the point of local churches. I believe in the local church and it's local churches that are doing those commands.

 

[jbh28]

Tom Butler

You posted....



Tom, who are these *christians* you speak of who dont worsip God, who never fellowsip with other christians, who dont preach or evangelize and who never observe any sacraments?

That is a description of LOST people. Why bring them up into the conversation?

We are discussing Gods victorious worshipfull universal church, which is filled with Spirit born BELEIVERS who DO practice those things.

exactly!

The universal church members(believers, body of Christ) assemble together in local churches. In the last day, we will all meet together.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's the point of local churches. I believe in the local church and it's local churches that are doing those commands.

Well yes.....I know you do. Your posts are solid. I just think that in our day there is a theology of the church ...that exists outside of what is actually revealed, as in my response to David...I am trying hard to follow after only the biblical language.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Are there unregenerate persons in the church & body of Christ? I have certainly witnessed church members who were saved well after they joined with the church. The Spirit does not baptize the unsaved into the body of Christ.

That would be true of the U-Church which would encompass all kinds of denominations and all kinds of heresies.

Note carefully the definition of a local church (a Biblical one) :

A church is composed of baptized believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together to obey the Great Commission and carry out the two ordinances of Christ (Baptism and the Lord's Supper).

That is it in its simplest form. One can fool man, but he can't fool God. If a person is not baptized (by immersion) and saved, then by default, he is not a member. There are no unsaved members in the local church, though some pretend to be. The Lord knows them that are his.

Even the early church had this problem. Look at what John says:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)
--John points to the same problem: "They were not of us," in other words they were not really members.

But in the U-church, all the false professions and so-called Christians, who knows what there is?