If you believe that God is not willing for anyone to perish(of his own free will), and if taking away the man's wealth would have caused the man to come to Christ(by his own free will), then to be consistent I think you must believe that God took away the man's wealth. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, its the Calvinist that assume God will always override man's will to accomplish His desires, not Arminians. God is not required to force his desires upon the will of man, he can choose to allow them to make their own decisions if that is His Will.
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How do Calvinists explain this passage?
- Thread starter William C
- Start date
Ok, let me turn the tables. Why does Rom 3 and Eph 2 NOT support total inability?</font>[/QUOTE]Translation: I can't answer your arguments so here this question will distract you and keep you busy.
I've told you why these passages don't support total inability. If you have forgotten you can look at my post titled "ROMANS 3:10-12 DOESN'T SUPPORT TOTAL INABILITY" or "ROMANS 8:5-8 DOESN'T SUPPORT TOTAL INABILITY." or "I COR. 12:3 DOESN'T SUPPORT TOTAL INABILITY."
I hope those answers your questions. If not, let me know what I need to clarify.
God Bless,
Bill
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Bill,
The Calvinist says that man can choose God. However, this is only after God intervenes and regenerates us. So, in reality, it is God who gives us the freedom to choose (through regeneration)--not chooses for us.
Blessings,
Archangel
No, this is not what we are saying. The idea is this: We are all, elect and non-elect, in bondage to sin. We, as Augustine said, are unable not to sin. This means that sin is our default position. We cannot choose other wise.
The Calvinist says that man can choose God. However, this is only after God intervenes and regenerates us. So, in reality, it is God who gives us the freedom to choose (through regeneration)--not chooses for us.
Blessings,
Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Bill,
"Well, there you go again" (Ronald Regan voice implied)
I am not interested in re-reading posts that fail, in my opinion, to make your point. I would like to go into each passage a verse at a time and work through them. However, the burden is on you to show why "dead" is not total inability.
My friend, I am sensing a lack of your normal warm spirit. Is everything OK? Can I help?
Blessings,
Archangel
"Well, there you go again" (Ronald Regan voice implied)
You are putting proverbial words in my proverbial mouth. Your assumption as stated in your "Translation" couldn't be further from the truth.
I am not interested in re-reading posts that fail, in my opinion, to make your point. I would like to go into each passage a verse at a time and work through them. However, the burden is on you to show why "dead" is not total inability.
My friend, I am sensing a lack of your normal warm spirit. Is everything OK? Can I help?
Blessings,
Archangel
Angel,
Everything is fine. Debate via written words can have a tendency to come across more harsh than intended. If you can't trust my words, trust my heart, it's not intended to be mean, just confident. I hope that clarifies everything.
I realize that you don't accept my arguments for Romans 3 or Eph. 2, but that is why we are here isn't it.
Can you tell me how Romans 3 teaches that man is unable to respond in faith to the gospel presentation?
And how do you know that when Paul uses the analogy of "death" that he must mean that man is "total unable" to respond to the calling of the HS through the gospel?
Once I know why you make these claims scripturally then I can tell you exactly why I disagree.
God Bless,
Bill
Everything is fine. Debate via written words can have a tendency to come across more harsh than intended. If you can't trust my words, trust my heart, it's not intended to be mean, just confident. I hope that clarifies everything.
I realize that you don't accept my arguments for Romans 3 or Eph. 2, but that is why we are here isn't it.
Can you tell me how Romans 3 teaches that man is unable to respond in faith to the gospel presentation?
And how do you know that when Paul uses the analogy of "death" that he must mean that man is "total unable" to respond to the calling of the HS through the gospel?
Once I know why you make these claims scripturally then I can tell you exactly why I disagree.
God Bless,
Bill
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Bill,
Glad to know everything is OK.
Ok, Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to this worldly age, according to the ruler of the atmospheric domain, the spirit now working in the disobedient.
This passage says that we were dead (obviously before our conversion) in our trespasses and sins.
3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and by nature we were children under wrath, as the others were also.
This is the result of being dead in trespasses and sins.
Now, this is important. By nature we were children under wrath. Not by accident, not by choice, but by nature. That means we were, because of the fall, corrupted in our very natures. The orginal design of our natures was warped and became sinful. Because of this we are children of wrath dead in sin.
4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved!
The greatest word in the Bible--But. Up till now, our situation was looking hopeless. However, God made us alive...out of our deadness.
6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
This is why we were made alive. So that we would be saved and so that God could display His grace.
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Obviously, this shows that we cannot work for what is a free gift of God.
10 For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
Now, this is interesting. Created in Christ....Why? For good works. Why would we need to be created in Christ. To what does this refer? This means that we have to be re-created.
Now, so far, I'm not sure that there would be much, if any, disagreement. However, this is where the roads part.
Not one place in this passage talks about what man does. It always, in every verse talks about what God does.
Further, 1 Corinthians 2:14 sheds light on the topic 14 But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.
The people who are natural (not Christians, not regenerate, etc.) cannot possibly welcome anything from God. He is inable to evaluate anything that comes from God.
How then is anyone able to accept Christ? Christ is foolishness to the natural man. God performs a work in the natural man to end the deadness of sin. God regenerates the dead. God walks through the morgue of life and breathes life into some of the corpses that are laying there. At that point, because the heart is changed--it has become re-created in Christ, the formerly dead person can understand the things of God.
Then and only then can a person accept the things of God--namely, the salvation offered in Christ.
Now, I'm sure that you'll find some problem with this. However, there are many passages which support that people are inable before God makes them able.
In the end, it is a question of Grace and Works, I think. If you could choose God, where is the Grace? Sure, it is a measure of Grace that God would still forgive you. But, there is some "work" on your part. However, if it is pure grace, then God gets all the Glory. This is the way it must be. God is the one who pursues and redeems man. No work, not even "choice" of man can add to God's glory.
Suggested Reading:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/doc_grace_index.html
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/summary.html
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html
Have a good Sonday!
Blessings,
Archangel
Glad to know everything is OK.
Ok, Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to this worldly age, according to the ruler of the atmospheric domain, the spirit now working in the disobedient.
This passage says that we were dead (obviously before our conversion) in our trespasses and sins.
3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and by nature we were children under wrath, as the others were also.
This is the result of being dead in trespasses and sins.
Now, this is important. By nature we were children under wrath. Not by accident, not by choice, but by nature. That means we were, because of the fall, corrupted in our very natures. The orginal design of our natures was warped and became sinful. Because of this we are children of wrath dead in sin.
4 But God, who is abundant in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. By grace you are saved!
The greatest word in the Bible--But. Up till now, our situation was looking hopeless. However, God made us alive...out of our deadness.
6 He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
This is why we were made alive. So that we would be saved and so that God could display His grace.
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Obviously, this shows that we cannot work for what is a free gift of God.
10 For we are His making, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
Now, this is interesting. Created in Christ....Why? For good works. Why would we need to be created in Christ. To what does this refer? This means that we have to be re-created.
Now, so far, I'm not sure that there would be much, if any, disagreement. However, this is where the roads part.
Not one place in this passage talks about what man does. It always, in every verse talks about what God does.
Further, 1 Corinthians 2:14 sheds light on the topic 14 But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.
The people who are natural (not Christians, not regenerate, etc.) cannot possibly welcome anything from God. He is inable to evaluate anything that comes from God.
How then is anyone able to accept Christ? Christ is foolishness to the natural man. God performs a work in the natural man to end the deadness of sin. God regenerates the dead. God walks through the morgue of life and breathes life into some of the corpses that are laying there. At that point, because the heart is changed--it has become re-created in Christ, the formerly dead person can understand the things of God.
Then and only then can a person accept the things of God--namely, the salvation offered in Christ.
Now, I'm sure that you'll find some problem with this. However, there are many passages which support that people are inable before God makes them able.
In the end, it is a question of Grace and Works, I think. If you could choose God, where is the Grace? Sure, it is a measure of Grace that God would still forgive you. But, there is some "work" on your part. However, if it is pure grace, then God gets all the Glory. This is the way it must be. God is the one who pursues and redeems man. No work, not even "choice" of man can add to God's glory.
Suggested Reading:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/doc_grace_index.html
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/summary.html
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html
Have a good Sonday!
Blessings,
Archangel
J
Jimmy J.
Guest
Archangel,
With all due respect I have to disagree with your post. You are discribing the difference between one who has the Spirit and one who does not.
Sure the man without the Spirit can't understand the things from the Spirit. But look just a few verses before in verse 12:
"We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us."
The issue of our debate is not the ability of those who are saved verses those who are still lost. The issue is how is one saved. How does is the Spirit received. Neither of these passages that you speak about really address that question.
Well, that's not exactly true. Eph.2 does say "through faith" which expresses the means that the Spirit comes to man. Look in Gal. 3 and it is clearly seen that the Spirit comes through faith.
The whole "dead man" argument can seem to lead one to think of someone totally unable but doesn't Paul use the word "dead" in other passages that refers to our being dead to sin? Does that mean we are unable to sin? No. So why would you assume that "dead" here means totally unable?
With all due respect I have to disagree with your post. You are discribing the difference between one who has the Spirit and one who does not.
Sure the man without the Spirit can't understand the things from the Spirit. But look just a few verses before in verse 12:
"We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us."
The issue of our debate is not the ability of those who are saved verses those who are still lost. The issue is how is one saved. How does is the Spirit received. Neither of these passages that you speak about really address that question.
Well, that's not exactly true. Eph.2 does say "through faith" which expresses the means that the Spirit comes to man. Look in Gal. 3 and it is clearly seen that the Spirit comes through faith.
The whole "dead man" argument can seem to lead one to think of someone totally unable but doesn't Paul use the word "dead" in other passages that refers to our being dead to sin? Does that mean we are unable to sin? No. So why would you assume that "dead" here means totally unable?
First, I would like to welcome Jimmy to the board, great post!
Second, yes I do know of one instance that Paul calls someone "dead" and they still had the ability to do that which he was "dead" too. Romans 6:2 as Jimmy has already pointed out.
One other instance comes to mind is James' reference to "dead faith." This is faith in God that did not produce works. Did James imply that thes people with "dead faith" wer unable to produce works of righteousness? No. He was critizing them for not following God and it seems that he fully expects those he is critiquing in this passage to change their ways. If "dead" means "total unable" it sounds like James would be wasting his time by rebuking these people.
It seems to me that the word "dead" is often used as an analogy of showing a man's lack of righteousness not necessiarly his lack of ability.
Hi Ken;
A quote from you;
------------------------------------------------
It's only Arminian dogma that contradicts Scripture by misapplying it to attempt to prove that man is totally able to save himself.
------------------------------------------------
The Arminian view does not say that man can save himself. This is what you see because you refuse to see the truth. You really should study the Arminian view before making such statements.
Arminian's admit that God is the one who draws all men to Him. It is Calvinism that clearly states we have no choice. Which makes God a dictator.
When choices are put before us we choose. There is no doubt that God laid choices before us. To either believe in His son or not. You believe you are made to believe, that you had no choice. This in my opinion is wrong because God Him self pleads with man to come to him. You believe that Christ died for only a few. But God's word says He died for the world.
The rich man who couldn't give up his wealth to follow Christ. He was given a choice by Jesus Himself. The richman chose not to follow Jesus and keep his wealth. That richman was not saved. He came to Christ because he was drawn. So he must of heard the message of Christ but, yet he wasn't saved because of his choice. This is a very clear view of the choice we have to make. We either serve Christ because we want to or we die in sin.
Romanbear
A quote from you;
------------------------------------------------
It's only Arminian dogma that contradicts Scripture by misapplying it to attempt to prove that man is totally able to save himself.
------------------------------------------------
The Arminian view does not say that man can save himself. This is what you see because you refuse to see the truth. You really should study the Arminian view before making such statements.
Arminian's admit that God is the one who draws all men to Him. It is Calvinism that clearly states we have no choice. Which makes God a dictator.
When choices are put before us we choose. There is no doubt that God laid choices before us. To either believe in His son or not. You believe you are made to believe, that you had no choice. This in my opinion is wrong because God Him self pleads with man to come to him. You believe that Christ died for only a few. But God's word says He died for the world.
The rich man who couldn't give up his wealth to follow Christ. He was given a choice by Jesus Himself. The richman chose not to follow Jesus and keep his wealth. That richman was not saved. He came to Christ because he was drawn. So he must of heard the message of Christ but, yet he wasn't saved because of his choice. This is a very clear view of the choice we have to make. We either serve Christ because we want to or we die in sin.
Romanbear
It is necessary to know who "we" is referring to, if it is not particularly those who have 'received this Spirit' thus have been saved, then it follows logically that salvation is universal.
Paul is not saying "we" as inclusive of all the world. But is speaking to those in this body who have received this Spirit.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
OOPS!!!!! I forgot to preview the post! DUH! See Below.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Jimmy J.--Welcome!
Romans 6:11 says, "So, you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (emphasis mine)
This is the only place I am aware of that Paul says this. HOWEVER, it is of great importance that Paul uses the word "consider." We are to consider ourselves dead to sin. We are not dead to sin. The Christian, as we all know, can and does still sin. Paul is not making a declarative statement as he does in Ephesians 2:1. There he says we were dead in our trespasses and sins. Here he says to consider ourselves dead to sin. In other words, we are to act as if we were (but, by implication, really aren't) dead to sin.
In these passages there is a huge difference in the useage of the word and therefore there is no "analogy."
The greek word for dead is "Nekros." This is the word that Paul uses in Ephesians 2:1 and 5, as well as, the passage here in Romans.
If, as you and Bill suggest, it is used as an analogy, then when Paul talks about Christ being raised from the dead (Nekros) and the dead (Nekros) in Christ rising he would be using that only as an analogy? So are we to understand that Paul thought that Jesus didn't suffer a real death? Did Paul not think death for a Christian was not a physical reality?
Of course Christ's death, and the death of anyone for that matter, are not analagous. They are actual. Because the word Nekros is used for all these examples, the idea that in one place (Ephesians 2) it is used only as an analogy is not logical.
Did understanding or the spirit come first? According to the above passage, 1 Corinthians 2, it is the Spirit that comes first and then understanding. The cart cannot come before the horse, so to speak. If the natural man cannot understand the things of God, how then does the natural man understand the things of God so as to be saved? Simple: the Spirit who is from God is given so that the gift of what has been freely given to us by God can be understood and recieved.
22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
It would seem, by saying "Before this faith came," and "Since that faith has come" that Paul is suggesting that even faith is a gift of God. In other words, Faith is not something we inherently possess--it is, like grace, a gift from God.
I don't really like this part. I wish it were different. However, scripture is clear on these matters.
It is nice to have you on the board!
Blessings,
Archangel
Does Paul say that we are dead to sin?
Romans 6:11 says, "So, you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (emphasis mine)
This is the only place I am aware of that Paul says this. HOWEVER, it is of great importance that Paul uses the word "consider." We are to consider ourselves dead to sin. We are not dead to sin. The Christian, as we all know, can and does still sin. Paul is not making a declarative statement as he does in Ephesians 2:1. There he says we were dead in our trespasses and sins. Here he says to consider ourselves dead to sin. In other words, we are to act as if we were (but, by implication, really aren't) dead to sin.
In these passages there is a huge difference in the useage of the word and therefore there is no "analogy."
The greek word for dead is "Nekros." This is the word that Paul uses in Ephesians 2:1 and 5, as well as, the passage here in Romans.
If, as you and Bill suggest, it is used as an analogy, then when Paul talks about Christ being raised from the dead (Nekros) and the dead (Nekros) in Christ rising he would be using that only as an analogy? So are we to understand that Paul thought that Jesus didn't suffer a real death? Did Paul not think death for a Christian was not a physical reality?
Of course Christ's death, and the death of anyone for that matter, are not analagous. They are actual. Because the word Nekros is used for all these examples, the idea that in one place (Ephesians 2) it is used only as an analogy is not logical.
This seems self-refutating to me. As you rightly say the one without the spirit cannot understand the things from the spirit. But, as you show, verse 12 shows how, for the Christians, this obstacle was breached.
Did understanding or the spirit come first? According to the above passage, 1 Corinthians 2, it is the Spirit that comes first and then understanding. The cart cannot come before the horse, so to speak. If the natural man cannot understand the things of God, how then does the natural man understand the things of God so as to be saved? Simple: the Spirit who is from God is given so that the gift of what has been freely given to us by God can be understood and recieved.
Galatians 3:
22 But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. 24 The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. 25 But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
It would seem, by saying "Before this faith came," and "Since that faith has come" that Paul is suggesting that even faith is a gift of God. In other words, Faith is not something we inherently possess--it is, like grace, a gift from God.
This is the general crux of the issue is it not? The elect will be given the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit at some point which will enable them to understand and accept the things of God. The non-elect or reprobate person will not. Therefore, they will not be able to understand or accept the things of God--including salvation.
I don't really like this part. I wish it were different. However, scripture is clear on these matters.
It is nice to have you on the board!
Blessings,
Archangel
We are just going in circles here. It's like the debate, "Which came first the chicken or the egg?"
But instead it's: "Which came first the faith or the Spirit?"
I believe it is very clear that faith is the means by which the Spirit is applied. In other words, the man must have faith before the Spirit comes.
"Through the work of Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, and we Christians receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith."
It's funny to me that Calvinists take Eph. 2:8 which says, "You are saved by grace through faith..." and they teach that this must mean its by grace through faith which is by grace.
And this passage in Gal. 3 which says, "Christians recieve the promised Holy Spirit through faith." Calvinists interpret that as meaning the HS comes through faith which is from the HS.
The ends are usually accomplished through the means. But for Calvinists the ends are accomplished through the means which are made available by the ends. It's really quite confusing the way you guys twist this stuff around. The gospel is really quite simple. "Repent and believe and you will be saved!"
But instead it's: "Which came first the faith or the Spirit?"
I believe it is very clear that faith is the means by which the Spirit is applied. In other words, the man must have faith before the Spirit comes.
"Through the work of Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, and we Christians receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith."
It's funny to me that Calvinists take Eph. 2:8 which says, "You are saved by grace through faith..." and they teach that this must mean its by grace through faith which is by grace.
And this passage in Gal. 3 which says, "Christians recieve the promised Holy Spirit through faith." Calvinists interpret that as meaning the HS comes through faith which is from the HS.
The ends are usually accomplished through the means. But for Calvinists the ends are accomplished through the means which are made available by the ends. It's really quite confusing the way you guys twist this stuff around. The gospel is really quite simple. "Repent and believe and you will be saved!"
J
Jimmy J.
Guest
Good point Bill!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Well stated Bro Bill
There you go again Bill read your Bible... The full grown chicken came first... Same as Adam and Eve came first.
Since God is a Spirit then the spirit comes first... Not faith because all men have not faith... But then you argue with the Lord because he told Nicodemus... The wind goes where it wants... You don't know from which way it came and you sure don't know which way it's going... So is everyone born of God.
Poor Nicodemus he was trying to apply being born again in a natural sense... Trying to become an egg again... Haven't you learned by now that faith regeneration isn't taught in the scriptures in an eternal sense... You were as dead a doornail... What applied to Nicodemus applies to us all... You had no control over your natural birth and God being my witness you have no control over your spiritual... Quit arguing with Calvinist and refute scripture!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist
[ March 09, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Primitive Baptist
New Member
"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom. 6:11)
Those who are born of the Spirit are dead UNTO sin, not dead IN sin. By putting on the "new man," we are able to resist sin (Eph. 4:24).
Those who are born of the Spirit are dead UNTO sin, not dead IN sin. By putting on the "new man," we are able to resist sin (Eph. 4:24).
We are born again through the word of truth.Originally posted by tyndale1946:
There you go again Bill read your Bible... The full grown chicken came first... Same as Adam and Eve came first.
Since God is a Spirit then the spirit comes first... Not faith because all men have not faith... But then you argue with the Lord because he told Nicodemus... The wind goes where it wants... You don't from which way it came and you sure don't know which way it's going... So is everyone born of God.
Poor Nicodemus he was trying to apply being born again in a natural sense... Trying to become an egg again... Haven't you learned by now that faith regeneration isn't taught in the scriptures in an eternal sense... You were as dead a a doornail... What applied to Nicodemus applies to us all... You had no control over your natural birth and God being my witness you have no control over your spiritual... Quit arguing with Calvinist and refute scripture!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist
1. Gospel by the HS power is proclaimed (1 Peter 1:12)
2. Faith comes from hearing (Romans 10:17)
3. The Spirit comes through faith (Gal. 3:14) and births within us new life giving us understanding of the deep things of God (1Cor 2:14)
4. We confess Christ as Lord and repent of our sins (Romans 10:8-9)
Is that enough scripture Glenn?
Primitive Baptist
New Member
If you will, please explain how you deduce Gospel regeneration from 1 Peter 1:12.
Primitive Baptists do not deny that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Until the Gospel is preached, no man can believe because there is nothing to believe. The practice of faith comes by hearing the word of God, but it does not initially place it within the heart. That is a sovereign work of God. In 2 Corinthians 4:13, the Spirit of God is called the "spirit of faith."
"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power," (Ephesians 1:19)
"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (1 Peter 1:21)
Primitive Baptists do not deny that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Until the Gospel is preached, no man can believe because there is nothing to believe. The practice of faith comes by hearing the word of God, but it does not initially place it within the heart. That is a sovereign work of God. In 2 Corinthians 4:13, the Spirit of God is called the "spirit of faith."
"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power," (Ephesians 1:19)
"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (1 Peter 1:21)