How do Calvinists interpret John 3:16

[DeafPosttrib]

npetreley,

You say:

"The whole world" means "not limited to you(my audience for the letter) and me, but including people from everywhere in the world."

Oh come on.

Ok, please explain me, what "NOT for ours only" speak of?

Please look again - "...but also FOR SINS of the WHOLE WORLD." Obivously, it tells us, Christ died for ALL sinners, not just for elects only.

Johnp,

Do you actual understand what " ye MUST be born again" talking about?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[npetreley]

Oh come on.

My sentiments to you, exactly.

Ok, please explain me, what "NOT for ours only" speak of?

"ours" refers to himself and his audience. John is writing to believers, who John must obviously assume to be among the elect in order to give everyone to whom he writes the letter the benefit of the doubt.

Please look again - "...but also FOR SINS of the WHOLE WORLD." Obivously, it tells us, Christ died for ALL sinners, not just for elects only.

That's not what it says to me. It says to me that this doesn't apply to just us, i.e., Greeks and Jews, but to people in the whole world, even places we've never heard of. It doesn't say to me "every person on earth".

Again, if that's what it was supposed to mean, God could easily have inspired the text to say that without leaving it open to debate. It could have said, similar to the verses I quoted, "for the sins of the whole world, no, not even one is overlooked". THAT would tell me it means every man, just as when God says "there is no one righteous, NO, NOT ONE" it means every man.

 

[RichardJS]

Today, I just want to curious reading their posts. One post, which I have strongly disagree with: at post #35 pp. 4 - reformedbeliever said: 'we are born again first, then we believe'. Nonsense. I disagree with his comment.

New birth and regeneration are the same thing. The issue is this, because man is dead in sin and unable to exercise faith how is it that he comes to? The answer is that God gives him a new heart in order to enable him to respond to the gospel. Hence new birth or regeneration preceeds conversion.

Articles of help:
http://www.prca.org/articles/regeneration.html
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/aabbregen.htm
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Regeneration/regeneration.htm
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Regeneration/Essays/

The Bible teaches us,

1. First, we hear the gospel
2. Realize that I have sinned, am on the way to hell
3. Understand that Christ died for me, believe what He has done for me
4. Ask Christ for telling him, sorry for doing wrong things.
5. become child of God.

That is certainly one way of looking at it however I would argue that this is correct:
1. God chose to save some people out of the common mass of humanity before the foundation of the world.
2. For these the Son of God became incarnate as Christ and as the surety of the elect fulfilled the law perfectly and suffered the punishment due for breaking it.
3. God then sends his preacher to preach the gospel and through the outward call the elect hear the gospel.
4. The Holy Ghost regenerates the elect and works faith into them so that they embrace Christ and trust in him solely for salvation.

The 1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith teaches:

III. We believe that, before the world began, God did elect a certain number of men unto everlasting salvation, whom he did predestinate to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, of his own free grace, and according to the good pleasure of his will: and that, in pursuance of this gracious design, he did contrive and make a covenant of grace and peace with his Son Jesus Christ, on the behalf of those persons, wherein a Saviour was appointed, and all spiritual blessings provided for them; as also that their persons, with all their grace and glory, were put into the hands of Christ, and made his care and charge.

IV. We believe that God created the first man, Adam, after his own image, and in his likeness; an upright, holy, and innocent creature, capable of serving and glorifying him; but, he sinning, all his posterity sinned in him, and came short of the glory of God: the guilt of whose sin is imputed, and a corrupt nature derived, to all his offspring, descending from him by ordinary and natural generation: that they are by their first birth carnal and unclean, averse to all that is good, uncapable of doing any and prone to every sin; and are also by nature children of wrath, and under a sentence of condemnation, and so are subject not only to a corporal death, and involved in a moral one, commonly called spiritual, but are also liable to an eternal death, as considered in the first Adam, fallen and sinners; from all which there is no deliverance but by Christ, the second Adam.

V. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, being set up from everlasting as the Mediator of the new covenant, and he, having engaged to be the surety of his people, did, in the fulness of time, really assume human nature, and not before, neither in whole nor in part; his human soul, being a creature, existed not from eternity, but was created and formed in his body by him that forms the spirit of man within him, when that was conceived in the womb of the virgin; and so his human nature consists of a true body and a reasonable soul; both which, together, and at once, the Son of God assumed into union with his divine Person, when made of a woman, and not before; in which nature he really suffered and died as their substitute, in their room and stead, whereby he made all that satisfaction for their sins, which the law and justice of God could require, as well as made way for all those blessings, which are needful for them both for time and eternity.

 

[Blammo]

Are you sovereign over your own destiny or is God?

God is. Since I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, I have no choice but to go to heaven. Those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ have no choice but to go to hell.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy. Just suppose that I go along with you and say Jesus did actually die for everyman ever born, ok? What now? Everyman ever born must be saved, is this right? If not why not?

john.

Not every man will accept the offer of salvation. Sadly, some prefer the darkness to the light.

Not every man will be saved because they reject the savior. That is not God's fault, it it theirs.

 

[johnp.]

Hello DeafPosttrib.

Do you actual understand what " ye MUST be born again" talking about?

Yes but I'm not too sure what you are. It means that if a man is not regenerated he is unable to understand anything to do with the Spirit of God because the things of God are spiritually discerned and the flesh cannot comprehend spiritual things from God. How's that, do I pass?

One must be born again before he can experience faith in God. The flesh only gives birth to flesh. With rebirth one has new earholes so one can get it.

Hello Blammo.

Since I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, I have no choice but to go to heaven. Those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ have no choice but to go to hell.

I know, it is the chooser of that that is in question.

Hello Amy.G.

Not every man will accept the offer of salvation. Sadly, some prefer the darkness to the light.

Did Jesus die for their sins or not Amy? What has acceptance to do with it? Are they going to be punished for their sins after Jesus suffered for them? Does God seek to extract justice twice for the same crime?

Not every man will be saved because they reject the savior. That is not God's fault, it it theirs.

How can they reject a thing that took place before they were born? Did Jesus ask if anyone did not want to be atoned for? Since you say that He atoned for the sins of every man then what are they going to be punished for, Jesus has paid the penalty for sin so men cannot be sent to Hell for sins?

Just suppose that I go along with you and say Jesus did actually die for everyman ever born, ok? What now? Everyman ever born must be saved, is this right? If not why not? Your reply does not answer the point, Jesus died for them. The payment was accepted by God the Judge. God the Judge will acquit all men that have another pay the penalty for their sins. It secured a not guilty verdict on us. Jesus was struck by God for all men's sins you say, why does He then stike us? It can't be because we refuse the sacrifice as the sacrifice was accepted.

john.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have been member of Baptistboard for 5 years. I have been reading Calvinism vs. Arminian Threads. It have been debate, debate, debate, it is endless till Christ comes. We have realized these are part of Soteriology(salvation) doctrine. This is the hottest debate than any issues ever we faced today. I haven't make a post on this topic. Today, I just want to curious reading their posts. One post, which I have strongly disagree with: at post #35 pp. 4 - reformedbeliever said: 'we are born again first, then we believe'. Nonsense. I disagree with his comment.

In John 3:3, Christ said, "Execept a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Again, in John 3:5, he said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Again in John3:7, he continued, "...ye MUST be born again."

My understanding what Christ means, he tells us, we MUST be repent, or cannot have eternal life.

The Bible teaches us,

1. First, we hear the gospel
2. Realize that I have sinned, am on the way to hell
3. Understand that Christ died for me, believe what He has done for me
4. Ask Christ for telling him, sorry for doing wrong things.
5. become child of God.

John 3:16 is the most famous and popular verse among religions. Common for many Christians claim, this verse is their favorite verse. I know John 3:16 for so many years since I was child.

My understanding of Calvinists saying, 'world' means elects. I disagree with them.

Romans 5:8 tells us, God show his love toward us that Christ died for us while we were sinners.

1 John 2:2 tells us, Christ is the atonement for OUR(elect) sins, and not not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." It means, Christ died for not just elects only, also the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD!

In 1 Peter 3:9 tells us, God doesn't want all people go perished, but want all people come to repentance. God's will for everyone to repent and have eternal life. That is His love.

Sadly, most people refused, and want in their own ways, reject God's love offering, are on the way to hell - Matt. 7:13-14.

Do not blame God, that most are in the hell, because they already made their choice and decisions, and do not believe in Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Christ means exactly what He said, "you must be born again". If He meant repent, He would have said "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one repents he cannot see the kingdom of God." He meant exactly that one must be born again of the Holy Spirit of God. I can't believe you would take away and add to the Word of God. :tear:

 

[Blammo]

I know, it is the chooser of that that is in question.

The chooser of what? The way? God chose that too.

 

[Hope of Glory]

On my school bus, I will occasionally buy some candy for all the kids.

But, they have to take it.

Some choose not to, for whatever reason.

Doesn't mean I didn't buy one for every single kid on the bus. (I always have some left over, which makes the other drivers happy later, since I don't eat candy.)

As an aside, one of the scools has after school activities and we have to make a second run. They usually fill them full of sugar and caffeine which makes them misbehave on the bus. One of the drivers, on the way to school, once gave them each Red Bull and a Hershey's bar for payback. The school doesn't give them as much any more.

 

[Sularis]

Ahhh I get it now

Ok - I think I understand the Calvinists - still dont think yer right

1. God elects someone before time begins
2. At the appropriate time of His choosing He effectually calls them
3. This effectual call brings about regeneration or a new nature
4. This new nature's normal action is to have faith unconciously like breathing
5. This unconcious faith which is part of the new nature is what prompts God to give us salvation


Ok Im still a little iffy on the number 5 as to the exact process - but Im working off the concept that y'all whacked out Calvinists believe that it is some form of unconcious response much like the doctor smacking one's knee

If I havent horribly misrepresented the Calvinist line of thought - let me say what I think is the one difference between my representation of Calvinist thought. Is that instead of unconcious I believe that it is concious.

On another note I believe again that there is no two-tier system neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, free or slave. This regenerative call goes out to all.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I pesonally don't have any hangups with John 3:16.

It's the Calvinists that insist Christ didn't die for the world, just the elect.

I am one of those Calvinists, but I don't think John 3:16 addresses that issue.

 

[Hope of Glory]

This is another one of those issues where "contradictions" create dissension, where no contradiction exists.

If you apply "election" to being the same thing as being saved, then there are contraditions. But, the elect are the ones who are called out from among the saved.

God knew beforehand who would accept the offer of spiritual salvation, and out of that group, some were elect or called out for special honor, just as with his apostles, some were part of a special group, and John was even most loved from among that group.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

This is another one of those issues where "contradictions" create dissension, where no contradiction exists.

If you apply "election" to being the same thing as being saved, then there are contraditions. But, the elect are the ones who are called out from among the saved.

God knew beforehand who would accept the offer of spiritual salvation, and out of that group, some were elect or called out for special honor, just as with his apostles, some were part of a special group, and John was even most loved from among that group.

How does 2 Thess. 2:13 fit into that theory?

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth

 

[Helen]

How does 2 Thess. 2:13 fit into that theory?
Quote:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth

**********


Isaiah40:28, if you will note that sentence, it says that the way of salvation was chosen from the beginning, not who would be saved.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

How does 2 Thess. 2:13 fit into that theory?
Quote:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth

**********


Isaiah40:28, if you will note that sentence, it says that the way of salvation was chosen from the beginning, not who would be saved.

You're wrong, but Helen, I know better than to argue with you. It goes nowhere.
Perhaps someone else with better grammar skills will take up the argument.

 

[webdog]

You're wrong, but Helen, I know better than to argue with you. It goes nowhere.
Perhaps someone else with better grammar skills will take up the argument.

Instead of "you're wrong" please explain to the readers how she is wrong.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Isaiah40:28, if you will note that sentence, it says that the way of salvation was chosen from the beginning, not who would be saved.

Perhaps someone else with better grammar skills will take up the argument.

It doesn't take "better grammar skills" to point out that what was chosen was "you." It says it right there in the text. It is not referring to choosing a way of salvation. If Paul was referring to the way of salvation, he would have said that, rather than saying "you."

Think about that in Helen's use of "choice." For it to be a real choice (for her), there must be a genuine option. The truth is that there is no other option for God to choose. Salvation only and always has been through faith. God didn't "choose" that. There has never been any other option, so Helen's previous arguments about "choice" (misguided as they are) actually defeat her own view here.

He chose people which is why the text says that he chose people.

 

[psalms109:31]

John

John was speaking to the elect in John 3:16, but those who say they are the elect of God don't believe Him.

God loved the world that He sent His Son, that whosoever believes shall not perish but have eterenal life.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

That tells us who call ourselves the elect to go reach out.

The harvast is plenty, but the workers our few. So let us pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out more workers.

 

[webdog]

It doesn't take "better grammar skills" to point out that what was chosen was "you." It says it right there in the text. It is not referring to choosing a way of salvation. If Paul was referring to the way of salvation, he would have said that, rather than saying "you."

Think about that in Helen's use of "choice." For it to be a real choice (for her), there must be a genuine option. The truth is that there is no other option for God to choose. Salvation only and always has been through faith. God didn't "choose" that. There has never been any other option, so Helen's previous arguments about "choice" (misguided as they are) actually defeat her own view here.

He chose people which is why the text says that he chose people.

Helen is correct, it's the means being referred to. You cannot ignore the prepositions you so choose. Ephesians tells us we were saved by grace through faith. We weren't saved without faith. Same rings true here. We were chosen to be saved through the work of the Holy Spirit and through our belief in the truth. Like Eph. 2:8-9 being saved by grace through faith, we weren't chosen apart from that.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

It doesn't take "better grammar skills" to point out that what was chosen was "you." It says it right there in the text. It is not referring to choosing a way of salvation. If Paul was referring to the way of salvation, he would have said that, rather than saying "you."

Think about that in Helen's use of "choice." For it to be a real choice (for her), there must be a genuine option. The truth is that there is no other option for God to choose. Salvation only and always has been through faith. God didn't "choose" that. There has never been any other option, so Helen's previous arguments about "choice" (misguided as they are) actually defeat her own view here.

He chose people which is why the text says that he chose people.

Thanks, Pastor. You explained the issue quite well.
"God chose you to be saved" is a clause that leaves no room for wondering what God chose.