How do Calvinists interpret John 3:16

Guilty conscience?

Now let me explain what I really meant with that verse.


You posted Proverbs 16:1 in order to show me that God is causing what goes on in men's hearts. You know, the old "God is the author of sin" stuff. So, I posted Proverbs 16:5 to, hopefully, show you how absurd your idea is. Do you think God pokes Himself in the eye too? If so, do you think He punishes His hand for it?

 

I'm sorry Blammo this might seem a bit dense, I jest not, but where does it say God doesn't poke Himself in the Eye? I understand it to be rhetorical but rhetorical where? Do you mean it as 'shooting Himself in the Foot'?

Father confessor? 1JN 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Guilty conscience Blammo? There! My pride all over it. Guilty conscience is of little use, 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Just honesty is needed not remorse. You should wonder why I have a guilty conscience if I believe God causes me to sin, shouldn't you, not ask me if I have one?

john.

 

I mean, do you think God plans things that are an abomination to Him so He can get really mad? Do you think He does this so we who believe will be awed? Now that you have revealed the secret that we are all just doing what God makes us want to do, should we still be awed? Are we in awe because we are made to be in awe? Is God glorified by part of us being caused by Him to be an offence to Him, while the other part of us are caused by Him to be in awe of Him?

 

Affirmative...affirmative.

I am...recieving... new programming... can not... resist... evil... evil...

Danger, Danger, Danger Will Robinson. :laugh: and yet :BangHead:

 

Hello Blammo.

Yes with reservations on the wording. Why would that be wrong?

It was no secret of mine, I have never ceased saying so.

God is glorified by all that happens. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Am I wrong to think this means all things?

God sees no offence in His children.

john.

 

Actually, that is pretty close to what Romans says.

Don't miss the phrase, "objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction". It's no accident they're objects of his wrath. Remember, this passage comes immediately after the one that says God has the right to make whatever He wants out of the same lump of clay.

 

God will have mercy

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on, but people who say they do not disagree with God constantly do so.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then we have people disagree with God on that.

Who does God show mercy on, whosoever believes in His Son.

We are to be constantly washed in His word and cleansed through the blood.

We must eat of Jesus Christ flesh and drink of His blood to be changed. It is He who changes us. We are all headed for destruction and only Jesus can save us.

Who can save us from this body of death, praise be to Jesus.

 

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Not quite ready to go out on a limb yet, but I think I'm on the verge of a breakthrough. (Stand by) :laugh:

 

psalms.

No, we disagree with you on that.

He can't want all men ever born saved can He? Why did He put a Stumbling Block in the way of the blind? Was it because He had determined they fall big time or because He wanted the blind to find a safe place to walk? ...

"A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.​

He makes them fall because that will bring Him glory. Even your distaste of the fact will bring Him glory. They stumble because they were destined to fall to bring glory to God. (1 Peter 2:8) That's God's business.

john.

 

stumbling block

Pride is our stubling block our own wisdom is our stumbling block. When we come to Jesus we must come to Him as a child.

He has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to little children.

Hebrews 3
Jesus Greater Than Moses
1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

psalms.

Scripture says Jesus is.

Scripture says Jesus is.

We must go to Jesus as we are. We do not need to meet any condition before that. We must not try to be what we are not, one does not start in spirit and truth with a lie.

One does not need to dumb down to ask Jesus to reveal Himself to one does one?

john.

 

Child

A child is the greatest of us all, they are not dumb.

Jesus tells us that the truth comes to children, not to the wise and learned.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

 

I said nothing about children did I? We are not talking about children are we, we are talking about being child like?
One does not need to dumb down to ask Jesus to reveal Himself to one. We must go to Jesus as we are. We do not need to meet any condition before that. We must not try to be what we are not, one does not start in spirit and truth with a lie.

How do I become like a child psalms, I have fifty years to lose?

If God so loves the world why does He hide Himself from the 'wise and learned', are they not part of the world? You have made becoming child like a work to gain salvation.

john.

 

The word of God

You got to believe the word of God over what you believe.

Comming to Jesus is given up on yourself and trusting in God.

God said that He has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to children.

We are not to question God, but believe.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but the truth is hidden from the wise and learned. Because they do not trust God, but in what they want to believe.

You cannot teach those who think they know everything, until they are are willing to give up eveything for God.

We hide and say that is work, but it is the work of God that you believe, if you don't He is not working in your life.

We do have a debt that will never be paid accourding to the word of God and that is to love.

It is to easy to say it is work and hide behind it than to give up on yourself and trust in God and His word.

 

psalms.

That's a strange thing to tell me, where have I given my opinion in place of scripture?

Nothing is required before one goes to Jesus and nothing is required after one has been to Jesus. We are saved by grace. A change of nature is the result of God drawing us to Jesus. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus...

Not because of you. RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

That invalidates all of us doesn't it, we are all educated? Our Prime Minister's battle cry was education, education, education, are you saying this is the way of the Devil? Are you saying being clever disqualifies one from being given the secrets of the Kingdom of God? Once again I must ask you to inform me on the technique for becoming a child again, must I re-enter my mother's womb? I would have thought such an important requirement needs to be shouted out as you say it is the way to salvation. I should not have to keep asking for this.

Why not, He has all the answers?

You do not. You tell people that they must keep in step with Christ or they will be burnt but God says anyone who goes to Jesus will be raised up, they, me, have been guaranteed everlasting life on belief. End of story and the beginning of childhood I think.

It's a problem with the heart of man. Paul was far from childlike before Christ met him. Luke 1:8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown." When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Where did you get your understanding from? 1 Cor 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive?

I don't know what you mean.

That's not quite right as God works in and through all men all the time. You are right though about the fact that if one does not believe it is because God does not want you to. If He wanted a person to believe He would circumcise their heart and give them ears to hear with and eyes to see Him with. One must be born again before one can see or hear. Who has ever heard of a man healing himself of his own blindness?

A debt of gratitude to God.

You haven't trusted God and given yourself up to Him. You say you can walk away from Him and be lost, you trust in you to keep you in Him. I trust in the sacrifice Jesus made because God accepted it from His Son and His Son was acting on my behalf for His Father. Php 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
I trust in Him you don't. Works will spring from the gratitude felt. To tell people they can fall away will reduce this gratitude and lessens the merit in the work, if there was any.

john.

 

I would always point people to Gill if they want a sound Calvinist interpretation of a Scripture verse. In his book The Cause of God and Truth he exegetes a number of texts.

From His commentary:

Ver. 15. That whosoever believeth in him,.... Whether Jew or Gentile, a greater, or a lesser sinner, and of whatsoever state and condition, age or sex; and though ever so weak a believer, provided his faith, is of the right kind: not an historical or temporary one, a mere assent to the truth of things respecting his person, office, and work; but such a faith, by which a soul sees a glory, fulness, and suitableness in him as a Saviour; goes to him, ventures on him, commits itself to him, lays hold on him, and receives him, leans and relies upon him, and trusts in him, and lives upon him; and which is the faith of God's elect; a gift of his grace, and the operation of his Spirit; and which works by love, and is attended with the fruits of righteousness: now the end of Christ's crucifixion and death is, that such an one

should not perish; though he is in a lost and perishing condition in Adam, and by nature, and sees himself to be so, and comes to Christ as such; and though his frames and comforts are perishing, and he sometimes fears he shall be utterly lost; and though he is subject to slips and falls, and great spiritual decays; and shall perish as to the outward man by death; yet he shall never perish eternally, or be punished with everlasting destruction, as the wicked will:

but have eternal life; not by his works, but as the gift of God: and which he that truly believes; has already in the covenant of grace, in Christ his head, in faith and hope; and has the earnest and pledge of it, the Spirit of God; and the beginning of it, which is the knowledge of God in Christ; and shall hereafter possess it fully, and in person, to all eternity: even a life of perfect holiness and knowledge; a life of never ending pleasure; a life free from all the sorrows, distresses, and imperfections of this; and which will always continue.

Ver. 16. For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, Joh 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Ro 11:12, compared with Mt 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words,

""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isa 43:9 (say {b} the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''

And again {c}, "the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":'' and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation. "There is a place (they say {d},) the name of which is "Hadrach", Zec 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, Krw x, "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".''

And so of the "sun of righteousness", in Mal 4:2, they say {e}, "there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.'' And that {f} "there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.'' And on those words in Isa 21:12, "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe {g}, "the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".'' And again {h}, "in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isa 60:2.''

Once more {i}, "in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isa 43:3.'' To which may be added that denunciation of theirs {k} "woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?'' Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and it is as if he had said, you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, the peculiar favourites of God, shall share in the blessings that come by, and with him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by him, being hated of God, and rejected of him: but I tell you, God has so loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,

that he gave his only begotten Son; to, and for them, as well as for the Jews; to be a covenant of the people, the Gentiles, the Saviour of them, and a sacrifice for them; a gift which is a sufficient evidence of his love to them; it being a large and comprehensive one, an irreversible and unspeakable one; no other than his own Son by nature, of the same essence, perfections, and glory with him; begotten by him in a way inconceivable and expressible by mortals; and his only begotten one; the object of his love and delight, and in whom he is ever well pleased; and yet, such is his love to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, that he has given him, in human nature, up, into the hands of men, and of justice, and to death itself:

that whosoever believeth in him, whether Jew or Gentile,

should not perish, but have everlasting life; See Gill on "Joh 3:15".

 

Thanks Richard . AMEN to what John Gill said ! Gill needs to be consulted now more than ever for a really insightful understanding of God's Word . The typical understanding of John 3:16 is too surface-level .

 

1 Cor 12:28 And in the church God has appointed...teachers...

One must ask God why Amy.G.

The word 'world' has a number of meanings so an interpretation is called for. The 'world' in this verse means those who are not Israelites. For God so loved the world that He was prepared to cut off Israel to gain it.

But that is just your opinion whereas some might believe He meant the planet. It's an ambiguous word.

And let me remind you that God doesn't forgive His enemies because if He did Hell would be a wasted space. As if God is bound by law? Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Might be that God needs teaching about forgiveness.

1JN 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Told you it's an ambiguous word. It only has the meaning you want it to have because you want it to have.

john.

 

Amy , you are wrong . The following was intended chiefly for preachers , but has application to laymen ( laypeople ) as well . It's from the pen of Charles Spurgeon .

In order to expound the Scriptures , and as an aid to your pulpit studies , you will need to be familiar with the commentators : a glorious army , let me tell you , whose aquaintance will be your delight and profit . Of course , you are not such wiseacres to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have labored before you in the field of exposition . If you are of that opinion , pray remain so , for you are not worth the trouble of conversion , and like a little coterie who think with you , would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility . It seems odd , that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves , should think so little of what He has revealed to others .