How do Calvinists interpret John 3:16

[Scott J]

How does that fit with the story of the rich young ruler? He decided that the price to follow Jesus was higher than he was willing to pay. This is in direct contract to the story of Zachaeus who willingly took up the "yoke of Christ."

Extremely well.

The rich young ruler came "willingly" but wanted a system where by his "choice" and means were sufficient.

Zacchaeus came only with the idea of seeing who Jesus was. I would argue that even that desire was from God and for God's glorious purpose. Nonetheless, Jesus initiated the visit and what transpired then summarized what had happened in Luke 19:10:

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
.

HE sought. HE saved. Zacchaeus contribution like that of all the saved was that he was lost.

 

[Rippon]

Three And a Half Months Later

I ran across this over at studylight.org . In the Wycliffe version of 1395 ( more than a decade after his death ) the so-called Wycliffe version ( the more idiomatic second one I would think ) , instead of having "whosoever" had "ech [ each] man that bileveth " . I think it captures the sense better than whosoever . It carries the meaning of "those who" , not an indiscriminate "whoever" . God gives eternal life to particular people -- it is to those he grants belief in Christ .

 

[webdog]

It carries the meaning of "those who" , not an indiscriminate "whoever"

If you say so.

 

[npetreley]

If you say so.

Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller shall not perish but have everlasting life. Okay? There you have a "whosoever" that is not open to everyone, only it lays it out in clearer terms than John 3:16. Who enables a person to be 6 feet tall or taller? God. Who enables someone to believe? God. Same diff.

 

[Allan]

Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller shall not perish but have everlasting life. Okay? There you have a "whosoever" that is not open to everyone, only it lays it out in clearer terms than John 3:16. Who enables a person to be 6 feet tall or taller? God. Who enables someone to believe? God. Same diff.

Yep, you got a '6 foot' qualifier and therefore the 'whosoever' refers to those in the qualifier.

Since God so loved the 'World'...'Whosoever'...

Thereby 'World' is the qualifier and the 'whosoever' refers to those in the qualifier. World - or better known as MANKIND. :thumbs:

Isn't exegesis a blessing? :wavey:

 

[npetreley]

Yep, you got a '6 foot' qualifier and therefore the 'whosoever' refers to those in the qualifier.

Since God so loved the 'World'...'Whosoever'...

Thereby 'World' is the qualifier and the 'whosoever' refers to those in the qualifier. World - or better known as MANKIND. :thumbs:

Isn't exegesis a blessing? :wavey:

Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing. As a consolation prize, you win a copy of the WFV of the Bible (the Warm and Fuzzy Version). It substitutes all the difficult phrases with lines from 1st grader vacation Bible school songs. To quote: "One of you will ask, why does he still blame us, for who resists His will? Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so..."

The qualifier is BELIEVES. Whosoever BELIEVES. The question is, WHY does one person believe, but another does not? For the same reason one person is 6 feet tall or taller and another is not. God is in control of everything. But, quite frankly, it doesn't say that in this particular verse. All it says is "whosoever believes". If you really want to know why one person believes and another does not, you have to look elsewhere, such as Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1, Deuteronomy 29, etc. Look up those verses in your WFV, of course, and you'll find things like "Jesus loves the little children." All the sovereignty stuff has been ripped out.

 

[Allan]

Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing. As a consolation prize, you win a copy of the WFV of the Bible (the Warm and Fuzzy Version). It substitutes all the difficult phrases with lines from 1st grader vacation Bible school songs. To quote: "One of you will ask, why does he still blame us, for who resists His will? Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so..."

The qualifier is BELIEVES. Whosoever BELIEVES. The question is, WHY does one person believe, but another does not? For the same reason one person is 6 feet tall or taller and another is not. God is in control of everything. But, quite frankly, it doesn't say that in this particular verse. All it says is "whosoever believes". If you really want to know why one person believes and another does not, you have to look elsewhere, such as Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1, Deuteronomy 29, etc. Look up those verses in your WFV, of course, and you'll find things like "Jesus loves the little children." All the sovereignty stuff has been ripped out.

I'll take the warm and fuzzy version, after all it is the only true version out there. I mean it is the only one God breathed according to scripture :laugh:

You are right however about 'believe' being the qualifier. I was thinking of what the 'whosoever' was and wrote 'whosoever' by mistake.

But Gods in His love towards sinful man sent forth His Son that if anyone will believe they will be saved and those who will not will perish.

Quite fankly it does say in that verse that God is in control, just not the non-sense way of God controling by making (or through force) those who believe to believe. The verb "believe" is a Present, Active, Participle... In case you don't know (but you might) the Active Voice establishes the subject as the doer of the action .ie. "whosoever" is the one who is commiting the action and is not Passively believing whereby God would be affecting that person belief toward Himself.

If you look at the rest of passages in context you will find this same format. God giving Israel the opportunity NOT to die by giving them a symbol of salvation - with the sepent on the pole...

Your little rendition of verses do NOT show God making some believe and other making them to not beleive. Well I guess they could if you bring to the text a presupposition, and neglect the context surrounding the verses you gave. But what do I know, I'm not a Calvinist and therefore according to many a heretic.

Anyway... you careless, so just enjoy your day. :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you try to apply John 3:16 to spiritual salvation, there are all sorts of theological contradictions, as is evidenced by both side of the OSAS argument using the same verse as part of their "proof".

 

[Allan]

If you try to apply John 3:16 to spiritual salvation, there are all sorts of theological contradictions, as is evidenced by both side of the OSAS argument using the same verse as part of their "proof".

And anyone who believes there are two salvations is much further afield (as in WAY out stand in some cow field) than anything contended in the C/A debates.

Sorry, I could resist :laugh:
my appoligies.

 

[Hope of Glory]

And anyone who believes there are two salvations is much further afield (as in WAY out stand in some cow field) than anything contended in the C/A debates.

Sorry, I could resist :laugh:
my appoligies.

And anyone who accepts contradictions, such as believing OSAS and using John 3:16 to "prove" it, or someone who rejects OSAS, and simply ignores the passages that shows OSAS is barely even in the same city as the ball park.

I can show three salvations all day long, how it lines up perfectly with Scriptures, leaving no contradictions, and both sides will continue arguing while ignoring the contraditions. (And if you think there's only one salvation, then there are contradictions in Scriptures and you have to either accept contradictions, or create some manmade doctrine that fits which contradiction you choose to accept.)

It saddens me that the Baptist denomination in general has almost completely abandoned Scriptures in favor of denominational statements of faith. On that same note, I preached at once church, they pulled out their statement of faith to use as "proof" against me, then discovered that their statement of faith lined up with what I was showing them from Scriptures. (I had researched their statement of faith before I agreed to preach there.) So, they did the only reasonable thing and ignored it as well.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

No "or's" in that verse.

Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If you think the soul and spirit are the same and are indivisible, you have to simply ignore Scriptures.

Oh, well, most people do. I recently had an elder at a church actually use the words that he didn't care what Scriptures actually said, only in what "felt" right.

Well, I can tell you from experience that traditions of men "feel" right when it's been hammered into you your entire life.

It's uncomfortable to give up such.

It should be uncomfortable to ignore what Scriptures say.

Most Baptists are content to stay comfy, from my experience.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that most Baptists are apathetic.

BTW, I don't know where you stand on the OSAS issue, but let me ask you 4 questions:

1. What does it mean to be saved? What works do you have to do to get saved, stay saved, or prove you're saved?

2. If you deny OSAS, how does that line up with Acts 16:31 that says that if you simply believe (mental assent) on the Lord Jesus, then you will be saved, without any doubt?

3. If you accept OSAS, how does that line up with John 3:16 that says that those who are believing might not (there is doubt) perish, but might (doubt again) have aionian life?

4. What is aionian life?

Oops, I guess that's actually 5 questions.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Amy G

To Amy G:

The answer to how Calvinists treat John 3:16 is with a broom, to brush it under their theological carpet, i.e. "world" doesn't mean world.

Here is the Calvinist paraphrase: "For God so loved the world of the elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever among the elect believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life."

Here is a link to a few quotes from Calvinists:

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John3_16.html

 

[Amy.G]

To Amy G:

The answer to how Calvinists treat John 3:16 is with a broom, to brush it under their theological carpet, i.e. "world" doesn't mean world.

Here is the Calvinist paraphrase: "For God so loved the world of the elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever among the elect believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life."

Here is a link to a few quotes from Calvinists:

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John3_16.html

Thanks ec,
I've enjoyed your posts. It seems lately that Calvinism has become sooo huge on the BB (it creeps in on almost every thread) that they might need to consider renaming it the Calvin Board! :laugh:

It seems to me that for Calvinism to work, 'world' can't mean world and, 'whosoever' can't mean whosoever. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Brother Bob]

Here is just a few scriptures you have to reword.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[webdog]

Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If you think the soul and spirit are the same and are indivisible, you have to simply ignore Scriptures.

I don't ignore it. Soul and Spirit (immaterial) is being divided from joints and marrow (material). This is not a proof text for triparate beings.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, you're trying to lump soul and spirit together as being divided from joints and marrow being lumped together?

I think you need to work on dividing the Scriptures properly.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Amy G

To Amy G:

I have a Saturday morning Bible study which includes a mixed group of Non-Calvinists and Calvinists, one of which is my hyper Calvinistic brother in law, Darrell. I say that he is a Hyper Calvinist, but I mean that only in the physical sense. He gets very hyper about these discussions, and gets loud, starts pointing fingers, and filibustering everyone just so that he can feel like he has won an argument. When he filibusters, he will declare victory and then he's so worn out, he wants to move on. Every time we have a Bible discussion, he and the other Calvinist always raise the issue of Calvinism. We cannot avoid it. We try to avoid it, but then they try to bring it up. If we talk about evangelism, he talks about general calls and effectual calls. No matter what it is, that's how the conversation is steered.

Lately, we've been discussing the issue of the Alter Call and Gospel Invitation, as currently being discussed on my Blog. He feels that if they are elect, they will come, and for anyone else to come, they risk a false sense of salvation. He claims that if you really are "regenerated" you will come, without needed to even invite them by way of a Gospel Invitation or Alter Call. By the way, I accepted Christ into my heart after a Gospel Invitation. My dad rededicated his life to the Lord when he responded to an Alter Call at a Billy Graham conference. However, if the SBC ever bowed to the will of the Calvinists, these things would all stop. This is why Calvinism is a plague and a cancer on the church. Calvinists are always seeking to infiltrate, pirate and hijack non-Calvinist churches. But that's why it's important for Christians to study their Bible in order to have an answer for Calvinism. John 3:16 is a terrific verse. One of my favorite techniques is to paraphrase verses to show how the Calvinist believes it.

Consider the Calvinist paraphrase of John 1:29: "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the [elect]."

Consider the Calvinist paraphrase of Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which is [elect]."

It's amazing! They will read "world" and "lost" but see "elect" because Calvinism is what they have so completely sold themselves to.

Yours truly,
Richard Coords

 

[webdog]

So, you're trying to lump soul and spirit together as being divided from joints and marrow being lumped together?

I think you need to work on dividing the Scriptures properly.

I'm sorry, I believe that is the proper exegesis of that passage...immaterial from the material. I believe the text to use figurative language, as joints and marrow are not even in contact with each other, meaning division of the two is futile, as they are already divided.

 

[OSAS]

God said it.

I would like an interpretation of these scriptures from a Calvinist's perspective.

I am a "Calvinist", and I say that God says what he means, and means what he says.

 

[Andy T.]

To Amy G:

I have a Saturday morning Bible study which includes a mixed group of Non-Calvinists and Calvinists, one of which is my hyper Calvinistic brother in law, Darrell. I say that he is a Hyper Calvinist, but I mean that only in the physical sense. He gets very hyper about these discussions, and gets loud, starts pointing fingers, and filibustering everyone just so that he can feel like he has won an argument. When he filibusters, he will declare victory and then he's so worn out, he wants to move on. Every time we have a Bible discussion, he and the other Calvinist always raise the issue of Calvinism. We cannot avoid it. We try to avoid it, but then they try to bring it up. If we talk about evangelism, he talks about general calls and effectual calls. No matter what it is, that's how the conversation is steered.

Lately, we've been discussing the issue of the Alter Call and Gospel Invitation, as currently being discussed on my Blog. He feels that if they are elect, they will come, and for anyone else to come, they risk a false sense of salvation. He claims that if you really are "regenerated" you will come, without needed to even invite them by way of a Gospel Invitation or Alter Call. By the way, I accepted Christ into my heart after a Gospel Invitation. My dad rededicated his life to the Lord when he responded to an Alter Call at a Billy Graham conference. However, if the SBC ever bowed to the will of the Calvinists, these things would all stop. This is why Calvinism is a plague and a cancer on the church. Calvinists are always seeking to infiltrate, pirate and hijack non-Calvinist churches. But that's why it's important for Christians to study their Bible in order to have an answer for Calvinism. John 3:16 is a terrific verse. One of my favorite techniques is to paraphrase verses to show how the Calvinist believes it.

Consider the Calvinist paraphrase of John 1:29: "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the [elect]."

Consider the Calvinist paraphrase of Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which is [elect]."

It's amazing! They will read "world" and "lost" but see "elect" because Calvinism is what they have so completely sold themselves to.

Yours truly,
Richard Coords

It sounds like you have met a couple of argumentative Christians who hold to Calvinism. I'm sorry for your experience. But please don't stereotype all Calvinists as the evil monsters that you have portrayed them. For instance, do you care to back up this claim: "Calvinists are always seeking to infiltrate, pirate and hijack non-Calvinist churches." Also, there are varying views among Calvinists regarding altar calls, etc. Also, there are varying interpretations among Calvinists regarding John 3:16 and the two other verses you posted above. So I would ask for you to stop the unloving attacks and stereotypes against the brethern.