How do these verses on God's love compare to you?

Unfortunately Bob, you build this whole elaborate argument on an ignorant understanding of the word Foreknowledge. I wish you would take the time to learn Greek before making statements and trying to explain texts.

Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

First of all it is personal... for WHOM He foreknew, this implies people in a RELATIONAL aspect and NOT a factual knowing. This rules out not only EVENTS in the future but also what the people DID. It is just "knowing the people" period. So he chose to "know" a certain people for themselves relationally and NOT for the things they did or ANYTHING else ANYBODY did (including Himself) for that matter.

If it was a factual understanding of events or what people DID it would have been written For WHAT He foreknew or the THINGS He foreknew...

And this is the deathblow... the word FOREKNEW is a VERB.....

This is very important to understand. Biblically the word "to know" is used factually as in: I know the world is round. And the word is used RELATIONALLY Adam KNEW Eve and conceived. Now in both of these examples (in English) the word was used in a VERB sense... BUT
in the GREEK the word foreknow is ALWAYS used as a RELATIONAL sense when used in the verb sense and is NEVER used in the noun sense.
I.E. God's foreknowledge (noun) .. this is talking about Him "knowing" things in the future.

God foreknew me. (verb) This WILL ALWAYS imply that He had a special relationship with me before my existence.

Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

The usage of "foreknowledge" fits perfectly (because this is the way the author intended it to be taken) in Romans 8 because the context is relational and the word foreknowledge is a verb.

With this proper exegesis, the verse implies that God before time chose to be in relationship with a certain people before time. He predestined them, called them, justified them, glorified them.

This nonsense about knowing what He was going to do sticks out like a sore thumb because it is forced upon the text being understood from a "readers response" instead of the proper way of understanding text "authors intent".

 

and out went the lights.

 

Some argue that foreknowledge does not allow God to know about evil, about the Fall of the angels or Adam or the flood etc UNTIL it happens since He can only "foreknow" those who have a saving relationship with Him.

"For God so LOVED the fallen doomed sinful world of mankind that HE DECIDED TO GIVE His Son and thereby CREATED the Gospel" (My paraphrase).

It points out that God did not have a world of BELIEVERS to FOREKNOW.

God was faced with a FALLEN human race and without the Gospel there WOULD BE no believers!!

Yet Calvinism REQUIRES a circular argument where God CHOOSES to "SO LOVE" a world of BELIEVERS that He then GIVES His Son and creates the Gospel.

How instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

 

A sinful, unbelieving world which He promised He will destroy in flaming fire.
A sinful unbelieving world whose inhabitants he loved so much He gave His only begotten Son for them, and nevertheless, He will send them to eternal fire despite the fact that His Son died for them and paid for their sins, according to you.

Now he loves them, then he don't.

Seems to me, God couldn't make up His mind, the way you put it.

Yet He says, 'I am the Lord, I change not', and in another book, it is written of Him, 'Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever'.

So, can you explain, please, why God loves the world so much in one book, and in many books, He promises eternal punishment and destruction ?

With Scriptures, please.

 

Hello pinoybaptist.

No Bob believes God never stops loving everyone even while torturing them in Hell. He will be crying His eyes out for the lost forever. But Bob don't believe Hell is forever if I'm not mistaken. Annihilation is their lot I think he thinks.

Nonsense is the lot for those that deny scripture.

HaHa!

john.

 

RC,

What do you mean "Whosoever" isn't in the text?
What bible are you using?

 

Correct. The world was DOOMED. The LAW of God demanded death - not only the first death (which even the saints go through) but the lake of fire "Second death".

The Calvinist fallacy is that Christ "propitiated an angry diety" at the cross and bought God's favor for ALL He died for.

God's doctrine (as described in Lev 16) BY CONTRAST -- is substitutionary ATONEMENT by the God who "SO LOVED That HE GAVE".

There could be no greater contrast.

You are not paying attention to my argument.

I don't argue that God does not love those who go to hell.

I argue that God WEEPS over the lost saying "ALL my Compassions are STIRRED UP" over you.

I argue that when the saints "Who STILL have love with 1Cor 13 Love for their family AS WELL as their NEIGHBOR that is not saved " will weep with God when their precious children are tormented IN the presence OF THE LAMB and of HIs Holy Ones (Rev 14:10) -- INSTEAD of rejoicing at that sight (as Johnathan Edwards would insist)

God so LOVED the WORLD that HE GAVE "IS SCRIPTURE".

SO also 1John 2:2 that God gave Christ for OUR SINS and NOT OURS ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

So also are these texts "scripture" showing God to WEEP over the lost rather than what Calvinism supposes.

(So why is such a loving God so unnacceptable to Calvinists??)

In Christ,

Bob

 

In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

quote:
________________________________________
1John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
________________________________________


God does not orchestrate the wicked to rebel against Him. God is NOT the author of SIN!

We are to “be like God” in that we are to love EVEN our enemies – for we have been given “the mind of Christ”

Here we see the "mind of Christ" that is given to the saints.

Jesus is telling us to love even our enemies.


1 John 2 tells us we can know we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments. The above scripture in Mattew 5 is clearly a command, no?

We are called to be "like God" in that we Love others instead of arbitrarily picking people "to hate". Not even our enemy may be "hated" using that model of "The mind of Christ".

If we have the "mind of Christ", and He commands us to love our enemies, He obviously does, too.

"The one who does not love doesn not know God"? Does this mean that God doesn't know Himself?! Are we "more like God THAN GOD"??

Surely not!!

It is not in God's nature to hate His creation, only the actions of His creation, as evidenced throughout the Bible.

 

Oops I forgot that JohnP is also in the discussion -

haha

That is for John.

 

Hello Bob.

Thanks Bob. Keen and mean.

john.

 

Finally - we seem to be on the same page!