How do we know we have Salvation?

[MB]

Recently in a discussion over some doctrinal issues I found some interesting topics that came up I'd like some of your opinions on. It isn't my intention to debate either side. I would just like a clearer understanding so I would like both sides if possible.
If those saved do not commit sin as is demonstrated in these verses I will present. Then how can we claim to be saved and still be sinners by commiting the acts of sin.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Paul also confirms the same kind of thinking when he said;
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This last verse clearly seems to be a type of separation between the flesh and the spirit.

I'm not wanting to discuss can we sin all we want to. But why is sin no longer sin, and is it true?
If it's true then how can we say we sin?

MB

 

[npetreley]

Don't forget this one:

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I think the verses you quoted from 1 John describe a continual state of sinful behavior, not whether or not we commit sin. If I recall correctly, the Greek makes this more clear.

 

[MB]

Don't forget this one:



I think the verses you quoted from 1 John describe a continual state of sinful behavior, not whether or not we commit sin. If I recall correctly, the Greek makes this more clear.

I agree no man is with out sin but that doesn't explain this verse.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
I'm not trying to claim that I do not sin or, haven't any sin but if we are born of God how come we sin?
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
If we haven't known Him because we sin, then how are we saved?
MB

 

[skypair]

Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This last verse clearly seems to be a type of separation between the flesh and the spirit.

I'm not wanting to discuss can we sin all we want to. But why is sin no longer sin, and is it true?
If it's true then how can we say we sin?

MB

Simple (I think) -- your SOUL can never be charged with sin again. It has been JUSTIFIED in Christ. And yet, sin is a "killer!" It is NOT expedient to sin because there is a "sin unto death!" So yes, as you say, there is a dichotomy between the flesh and the soul seen here, MB.

skypair

 

[Allan]

I agree no man is with out sin but that doesn't explain this verse.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
I'm not trying to claim that I do not sin or, haven't any sin but if we are born of God how come we sin?
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
If we haven't known Him because we sin, then how are we saved?
MB

When we look at the Greek tense for the word 'sinneth or sins' we see this is a present tense (or is IN the act / unmoved from it) and activily involved in the sin. The Voice is also Active meaning the Person is still DOING (continuous) it. So, I agree with NPETRELY, the context and definition is indictive of a present continous act or lifestyle of sin. We, being children of God are no more SLAVES to sin to be ruled by or maintained under it sway. We SIN (continue IN Sin as a lifestyle) no more. Compare this to what John says earlier

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Notice the terminology of 'walk" (active continuous participation)
But you will also note the rest of the veres in CHapter one state that we sin and He is faithful to forgive. This sin in the Greek is not a verb but a noun and shows AN act. It is not indicitive of something continuous but something that was done. We will sin but we will not live in sin.


Salvation is By grace THROUGH Faith.

We know we are saved because we are changed in our attitudes towards God. He becomes our life and what we desire.

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Notice the context here as well is about living a lifestyle that evedences that change.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance

Meet for = worthy of, or proving your.
Compare this to Mat 5:16

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Works do not save us but are evedence OF our salvation.
But Atheists do good works to so are they saved? What is the difference between the good works of an Atheist and Christian.
Note the above verse in Matthew - The good works of the Christian will cause men to give glory to God, but the Atheist alone will be praised.
Good fruit, Bad fruit. - Abiding in the vine will produce only that which the Vine gives to its branches. Good fruit, bad fruit.

Phl 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work out = Live out (perform or act out)

Scriptures maintain the same thought through out. You are to live as one who IS saved and no longer under the controling bondage of sin to STAY IN sin. But you have been freed to stay under the Life of Christ that sin NOT rule you. God will NOT allow sin to rule you as a believer because those whom He loves He chastens. They CAN NOT live a continuous lifestyle of sin.

 

[MB]

When we look at the Greek tense for the word 'sinneth or sins' we see this is a present tense (or is IN the act / unmoved from it) and activily involved in the sin. The Voice is also Active meaning the Person is still DOING (continuous) it. So, I agree with NPETRELY, the context and definition is indictive of a present continous act or lifestyle of sin. We, being children of God are no more SLAVES to sin to be ruled by or maintained under it sway. We SIN (continue IN Sin as a lifestyle) no more. Compare this to what John says earlier

Notice the terminology of 'walk" (active continuous participation)
But you will also note the rest of the veres in CHapter one state that we sin and He is faithful to forgive. This sin in the Greek is not a verb but a noun and shows AN act. It is not indicitive of something continuous but something that was done. We will sin but we will not live in sin.


Salvation is By grace THROUGH Faith.

We know we are saved because we are changed in our attitudes towards God. He becomes our life and what we desire.

Notice the context here as well is about living a lifestyle that evedences that change.
Meet for = worthy of, or proving your.
Compare this to Mat 5:16

Works do not save us but are evedence OF our salvation.
But Atheists do good works to so are they saved? What is the difference between the good works of an Atheist and Christian.
Note the above verse in Matthew - The good works of the Christian will cause men to give glory to God, but the Atheist alone will be praised.
Good fruit, Bad fruit. - Abiding in the vine will produce only that which the Vine gives to its branches. Good fruit, bad fruit.

Work out = Live out (perform or act out)

Scriptures maintain the same thought through out. You are to live as one who IS saved and no longer under the controling bondage of sin to STAY IN sin. But you have been freed to stay under the Life of Christ that sin NOT rule you. God will NOT allow sin to rule you as a believer because those whom He loves He chastens. They CAN NOT live a continuous lifestyle of sin.

Thanks Allen that was well writen. Now if someone else would give me there own personal view.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Skypair;

Simple (I think) -- your SOUL can never be charged with sin again. It has been JUSTIFIED in Christ. And yet, sin is a "killer!" It is NOT expedient to sin because there is a "sin unto death!" So yes, as you say, there is a dichotomy between the flesh and the soul seen here, MB.

skypair

The Bible certainly seems to agree about a separation between Soul and flesh.
Thanks for your response.
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hello MB. You need to understand that one of the reasons for John writing these verses of scripture was in response to gnosticism. When you study the historical context, and what John was responding to, it makes even more sense as you look at the literary context.

 

[MB]

Hi Reformedbeliever;

Hello MB. You need to understand that one of the reasons for John writing these verses of scripture was in response to gnosticism. When you study the historical context, and what John was responding to, it makes even more sense as you look at the literary context.

I didn't see anything about Gnosticism. Could you explain futher?
MB

 

[El_Guero]

Gnostics believed weird things and twisted the words they used . . .

Although I am not certain that the 'reason' that John wrote this epistle was just gnosticism, I am certain that what he wrote defended against the gnostics.

Hi Reformedbeliever;

I didn't see anything about Gnosticism. Could you explain futher?
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi Reformedbeliever;

I didn't see anything about Gnosticism. Could you explain futher?
MB

I'm sorry MB, but I'd have to write a book in order to explain gnosticism. I suggest you look it up. Wikipedia does a pretty good job of explaining it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism Hope this helps you brother.

 

[gerald285]

Recently in a discussion over some doctrinal issues I found some interesting topics that came up I'd like some of your opinions on. It isn't my intention to debate either side. I would just like a clearer understanding so I would like both sides if possible.
If those saved do not commit sin as is demonstrated in these verses I will present. Then how can we claim to be saved and still be sinners by commiting the acts of sin.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Paul also confirms the same kind of thinking when he said;
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This last verse clearly seems to be a type of separation between the flesh and the spirit.

I'm not wanting to discuss can we sin all we want to. But why is sin no longer sin, and is it true?
If it's true then how can we say we sin?

MB

Sin is not the practice of a real believer. The problem today is that we have negated scripture with a false doctrine call backsliding. There is no such thing for a true believer if we accept the new testament scriptures. True believers may sin from time to time, but the practice is to live a life keeping the commandments. That is not legalism, but scripture. We are saved unto good works. The true believer is kept from returning to sin by the Spirit according to 1John.

The passage in Romans is not about someone who lives in sin, but about one who is dealing with the idea that sin remains as a battle and the true beliver wants free from it all. Sin is sin and the true beliver seeks to be without ANY sin so the battle goes on. Oh wretched man that i am!