How do you Calvinists obey the Great Commission?

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
John,

Do you know the Starin's at all? I forgot what part of Japan they are located.

I just talked to Matt on the phone today! He's on Okinawa with our mission board, BWM, doing a great job. He just graduated from language school and has now taken over the church from the retiring pastor, a grand old BMM missionary named Bro. Roy Ohshiro.

I'm flying down to preach a Bible conference for him at the beginning of Sept. That'll be a lot of fun. I know a Christian martial artist down there (Okinawa is the birthplace of karate) who takes people out deep sea fishing, so we're hoping to fish for the big ones as well as the human ones!

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
Bro. Zentz was in language school with a close friend of mine, but I've never had the privilege of meeting him. We are somewhat isolated up here on the northern island. Other than Bro. Zentz, the ABWE folk are all down on the island of Kyushu. Bro. Zentz was on the main island of Honshu before, but I haven't heard where he is going next. Anyway, a good man!

Small world!

If I remember correctly, he said their new location is going to be much closer to the other ABWE people. Before, they were like 8-10 hours away by car. Now they are going to be just a couple of hours away. </font>[/QUOTE]That has to mean Bro. Zentz is now on the island of Kyushu. That is the only island of the main ones I've not been to. I'll get there someday, though. I have an invitation from an ABWE colleague of Bro. Zentz's to do a Christian martial arts seminar for him someday. He has a Tae Kwon Do (Korean karate) ministry in his church.

 

[Rhetorician]

To all who have an ear:

Calvinism (so called) or the Doctrines of Grace dealing with Soteriology has some aspects that maybe the "other guys" have not considered?

First, we believe that Christ did actually "die to save sinners!" He did not "die to make salvation possible" for all as the Arminians would confess.

Seondly, he uses human means to and for his own purpose.

Thirdly, in the use of those human means he has ordained to save some, i.e., "his people."

Fourthy, those human means are the preaching of the Gospel. In this he has allowed and ordained the preaching of the Gospel, handing out tracts, sending missionaries, printing Bibles, witnessing, etc. "to get the Gospel out!"

He was pleased to use us to fullfill his "Great Commission." But, as Spurgeon has well said it is "All of Grace." Means as well as ends.

Fifthly, we Calvinists are guaranteed to be successful in "soul winning" b/c we are out there looking for those who really will be saved by grace and God's choice and election.

Whereas, the Arminian "soul winner" is left to persuade or conjole some "sovereign sinner" to believe who later might change his mind.

On some level, both camps should be "hot after souls" with whatever means necessary!.

Rebukes, rebuttals, and angry exhortations expected.

sdg!

rd

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 4His_glory:
John,

Do you know the Starin's at all? I forgot what part of Japan they are located.

I just talked to Matt on the phone today! He's on Okinawa with our mission board, BWM, doing a great job. He just graduated from language school and has now taken over the church from the retiring pastor, a grand old BMM missionary named Bro. Roy Ohshiro.

I'm flying down to preach a Bible conference for him at the beginning of Sept. That'll be a lot of fun. I know a Christian martial artist down there (Okinawa is the birthplace of karate) who takes people out deep sea fishing, so we're hoping to fish for the big ones as well as the human ones!

</font>[/QUOTE]I'm with BWM too! I went to college with brother Matt. Tell him Jeremy Byrd says hello.

 

[Rhetorician]

Gentlemen, Gentlement,

Could we come back to the OP on Calvinism and Evangelism. It seems that we have wandered a bit "catching up" with old friends.

I really am interested in the opinions of others in the Evangelical World about how they perceive other groups' ways and means of Evangelism.

No anger intended just trying to keep us on topic.

sdg!

rd

 

[John of Japan]

Hi, Rhet!

Nice of you to drop in!

My original purpose for this thread was to find common ground rather than differences. And per my OP I don't want this to turn into a debate, since this is a fellowship thread. But I'd be glad to interact with you a little here.

You've succintly described some C vs A differences in your first post. However, my personal emphasis and thinking in this area has never been based on the C vs A debate.

Several problems I see that can occur whether one is Calvinist or Arminian or somewhere in between are:

(1) Many times the evangelizer gets the Gospel wrong, or proclaims an incomplete Gospel, while not meaning to of course. Check the tracts you give out. Do they discuss the resurrection? Most American tracts do not.

(2) Many times the evangelizer ignores the Holy Spirit, seeking to do the Lord's work in the flesh. (This is similar to what you've said, I believe.) It is the Holy Spirit who convicts and regenerates, but often the evangelizer has no realization of the Holy Spirit's power or filling.

(3) We are to get the Gospel to "every creature" and "all nations." The missions movements of all sorts of Baptists fail here. Since we don't know who the elect are, we are to proclaim the Gospel to everyone. But there are many unreached tribes and peoples, and over 2500 languages (according to Wycliffe) with no Scripture at all.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
I'm with BWM too! I went to college with brother Matt. Tell him Jeremy Byrd says hello.

Well shazzam! The board is getting so big there are many new missionaries I don't know. God bless you brother!

 

[Rhetorician]

J O J,

I guess your observation about the tracts is good. The thing that I miss probably most is any type of discussion of repentance. Repentance that "is the gift of God" and not some conjured up feeling for just "getting caught" or manipulation on personal guilt.

Repentance is definitively a "lost doctrine" is it not?

sdg!

rd

 

[shannonL]

Repentance is most certainly a lost doctrine.

I have family members that will tell you most certainly that they are saved. Yet they live with their boyfriends, never go to church, never read their bibles get the pic?
I can't judge them but I can inspect their fruit. The problem is I don't see any.
I just think about the fact that God's grace doesn't give us a license to sin.
I believe with all my heart that salvation is as simple as believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth. With this believing comes repentance. Because if you truly believe then you will turn "repent" from the former things etc...

I'm not God but I get concerned over family and friends who say they are saved yet you would have to hire a private investigator to find out if their christianity is something they are living in secret?
Where does this kind of christianity come from? Well it is an assortment of things and one of those things that contributes to that kind of profession of faith is "easy believism" or like one fellow calls it "easy prayerism".

One thing I know for certain... Bless God by His Grace I'm saved. I'm a seed sower. Thank God, He is the Harvester.

Reminds me of the D.L. Moody illustation. He passed by a drunkard in the ditch. The ole boy looked up at Mr. Moody and said "Bro. Moody I'm one of your converts. Bro. Moody said yep your definitly one of mine your most certainly not one of the Lord's."
Anyway I'm sure you all have heard that one but it kind of goes along with what were talking about. If God saved them you'll know it.
Just like if a man is God called or preacher called into the pulpit. Friend you'll know it in a heartbeat.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
J O J,

I guess your observation about the tracts is good. The thing that I miss probably most is any type of discussion of repentance. Repentance that "is the gift of God" and not some conjured up feeling for just "getting caught" or manipulation on personal guilt.

Repentance is definitively a "lost doctrine" is it not?

sdg!

rd

Hi again, Rhet. Just got back from "dendo" (evangelism) with Habazaki San, with a stop for coffee afterwards at a quaint little shop I'd never been to. Practice what you preach, amen (the dendo, not the coffee)?

Agreed that repentance is a gift of God and not a conjured up feeling to be produced by manipulation. After all, salvation itself is the gift of God, and repentance is necessary for salvation, amen? It does disturb me greatly to see some of the IFB crowd (I am one, but I don't claim all of them!) pressing for that prayer without paying any attention to whether or not the Holy Spirit is at work. We are fellow laborers with God.

My definition of repentance is perhaps a little complicated. First of all, I am firmly for the linguistic definition in which repentance is a change of mind on a fundamental level. Since it is on a fundamental level about such serious matters as sin and eternal destiny, it should have a profound effect on the repenter. And this is definitely the work of the Holy Spirit, who is convicting the person of "sin, righteousness and judgment." The final step in the repentance that results in salvation is the turning from dependence on one's sin or sinful way of thinking to the salvation which is in Christ. And in that turning, the repentance and faith are simultaneous, though the repentance process may have originated prior to salvation as the Holy Spirit worked in the person's life. The final turning, however, must be part of trust (Gr. peithw as well as pisteuw) in Christ, the dependence on Him and His atonement for salvation and not anything in one's own self.

I'll never forget how God worked in Abe San's life shortly after we came to Japan. I was interim pastor of a tiny work in our second year of language school, and Abe San was the only attender at our English Bible study. One day I taught repentance and faith, just as I have described it. The next Sunday Abe San came back and said, "Well, I did it Pastor Himes." I said, "Did what???" He said, "Repented and believed like you told me to!" Bro. Abe later moved to the other side of Tokyo and started his own church. What hath God wrought!

 

[Rippon]

That quote goes a bit further back in history , ShannonL . I believe Rowland Hill first said that . He died about 1838 or so . But the thought is true .

 

[4His_glory]

I most certainly agree that repentance is a lost doctrine. There is a whole segement of IFB churches that say we should nor preach repentence and that if one does he is advocating a works based salvation.

This comes from a misunderstanding of true repentance. When I give the Gospel wether in person or from the pulpit I always emphasis that one must come to Christ in repentance and faith.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
To all who have an ear:

Calvinism (so called) or the Doctrines of Grace dealing with Soteriology has some aspects that maybe the "other guys" have not considered?

First, we believe that Christ did actually "die to save sinners!" He did not "die to make salvation possible" for all as the Arminians would confess.

Seondly, he uses human means to and for his own purpose.

Thirdly, in the use of those human means he has ordained to save some, i.e., "his people."

Fourthy, those human means are the preaching of the Gospel. In this he has allowed and ordained the preaching of the Gospel, handing out tracts, sending missionaries, printing Bibles, witnessing, etc. "to get the Gospel out!"

He was pleased to use us to fullfill his "Great Commission." But, as Spurgeon has well said it is "All of Grace." Means as well as ends.

Fifthly, we Calvinists are guaranteed to be successful in "soul winning" b/c we are out there looking for those who really will be saved by grace and God's choice and election.

Whereas, the Arminian "soul winner" is left to persuade or conjole some "sovereign sinner" to believe who later might change his mind.

On some level, both camps should be "hot after souls" with whatever means necessary!.

Rebukes, rebuttals, and angry exhortations expected.

sdg!

rd

Rhet, as long as I have you here and you mentioned this, to me this is a gap in Calvinist theology. Per my OP, I don't plan to rebut and will not make this a debate, but I'm curious. I've studied through the whole thing of election and predestination for myself, and am not really interested in debating it. Nevertheless, I've never found anything in the Reformed theologians or the journals actually discussing the human means you discuss here. I did a grad paper on this once and couldn't find a single Calvinist treatment to interact with.

If irresistable grace is correct, then it logically follows that the human means must be predestined in detail, and I've found nothing in Scripture that remotely teaches this.

Note to you others: this question is specifically to Rhetorician, who I have come to respect and whose fellowship I enjoy on the BB. Though of course I can't forbid anyone from commenting, I may not answer anyone else unless I see special merit in your comment and decide to praise you.

 

[Rhetorician]

J O J,

Before I give what will hopefully be a measured and reasoned response, could you please answer me this one question from your quote above:

And I quote:

"Note to you others: this question is specifically to Rhetorician, who I have come to respect and whose fellowship I enjoy on the BB. Though of course I can't forbid anyone from commenting, I may not answer anyone else unless I see special merit in your comment and decide to praise you. "

To what may I attribute the above respect and admiration? Don't think that I don't appreciate it for I really do! However, you and I have certain personal, Baptistic, and Baptist sect perspectives that must be maintained. do we not? HA!

Could you help a brother out here?

sdg!

rd

 

[Plain Old Bill]

My Dear Bro. Rhet,
First I wish to apologize for everybody here on this thread who ignored your post.Secondly I will fulfill your wish.

I rebuke you,neener neener(I rebuttal you),I angrily exhort you to straighten out and fly right.

Hows that?

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
J O J,

Before I give what will hopefully be a measured and reasoned response, could you please answer me this one question from your quote above:

And I quote:

"Note to you others: this question is specifically to Rhetorician, who I have come to respect and whose fellowship I enjoy on the BB. Though of course I can't forbid anyone from commenting, I may not answer anyone else unless I see special merit in your comment and decide to praise you. "

To what may I attribute the above respect and admiration? Don't think that I don't appreciate it for I really do! However, you and I have certain personal, Baptistic, and Baptist sect perspectives that must be maintained. do we not? HA!

Could you help a brother out here?

sdg!

rd

I was first impressed when you gave due credit to the graciousness and Christian life of your pastor, though he is a BJU grad, even though you left the IBF movement. Since then, the posts I've read by you on the BB have been in a proper, respectful Christian mode. Also, on the Colleges/Seminaries thread you very often try to be a help to folk asking about different schools. That is a welcome contrast to so many who are on the BB to argue, not bless.

There, is that what you paid me to say, or did I miss something??

John

 

[Rhetorician]

P O B &

J O J,

Thank you for the kind words. I look forward to meeting you and may the Lord grant that we could minister together in person at some time in the future.

sdg!

rd

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
My Dear Bro. Rhet,
First I wish to apologize for everybody here on this thread who ignored your post.Secondly I will fulfill your wish.

I rebuke you,neener neener(I rebuttal you),I angrily exhort you to straighten out and fly right.

Hows that?

I believe that is exactly what he asked for, Bill.

 

[Rhetorician]

J O J &,

P O B,

I find the best way to answer your question about "Irresistible (sp) Grace" better called "Effectual Grace" is to have you read a book. I would direct you to one of the best answers that I have seen in print for some time.

It lies in the book by one of my mentors and colleagues, Dr. Tom Nettles, who teaches Historical Theology @ The Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville. The title is: "Ready for Reformation: Bringing Authentic Reform to Southern Baptist Churches." The ISBN # is: 0-8054-4059-3. Order if from Amanzon.com. If you cannot get it, let me know via email or PM. Send me your address overseas (JOJ) and I will have it sent to you.

It is one of the best reads I have gotten in my hot little hands in quite a spell. It is truly worth the time and will deliver some interesting insights into preaching and today's methodology.

I make this offer to both of you! Take me up on it!!!

sdg!

rd

 

[4His_glory]

Here is an understanding of the classic TULIP outline as it relates to the Great Commission.

T- Because of man's absolute depravity and inability to respond to the revelation he has in nature God has not only ordained who will believe, but how they will believe that being through the hearing of His Word. Because of mankinds depravity they do not worship God and because worship is what God demands and deserves missions exists.

U- because God has chosen many sinners before the foundation of the world to salvation, I can have complete assurance that the harvest will indeed be gathered. That labours are not in vain and there are those who will respond to the Gospel proclomation.

L- The power of Christ's death will save all who it intends to save non will be left out, despite their sinnfulness. It can wash away the deepest of sins stains.

I- Because of God's effectual grace and calling, there will be a response to the Gospel message in all parts of the world. I can have assurance that though men may not respond to my witness, there are those who are responding because of God's abundant overwhelming grace.

P- Those whom God saves through my witness will grow in the faith and they are eternally His. Hence I can be assured that my effrots to disciple them in the doctrine of the Apostles is not in vain.

That was simple, of course I could say more, but this is how I see things.

When I came to what I believe to be a proper understanding of election and God's sovereinty it gave me a renewed entusiasm for evangelism and missions. It directed my away from the man-centered mission theologies of my past, and focused me on the God-centered purposes that His glory is all important.

Nice web-site by the way John! Now I have a face to put with your name. You and your wife will be in my prayers as you serve Christ in a difficult part of the world.

God Bless!