How do you examine yourself?

[Gup20]

I think were missing the point here. If you look at the verse in it's context, Paul isn't challenging their faith, he's relying on the fact that they have faith.

He remarks in verse 3 that they questioned him...

2Cr 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

He says that they are seeking proof that Christ is speaking through him (Paul). But he remarks that the working of Christ in them is "mighty", meaning they should clearly see it.

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Paul says that the power of God is mightily at work in the Corinthians.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Paul is telling them... "don't examine me to see if Christ is speaking through me... the work done through me has been mighty toward you. Don't you know that you have Christ inside of you? Consult the Holy Spirit which bears witness inside of you if Christ is speaking through me. This will work .. .unless of course you don't have Christ in you... but we know that Christ is in us, and he is in you, so this will work."

 

[steaver]

GUP20;

I think were missing the point here. If you look at the verse in it's context, Paul isn't challenging their faith, he's relying on the fact that they have faith.

He remarks in verse 3 that they questioned him...

2Cr 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

He says that they are seeking proof that Christ is speaking through him (Paul). But he remarks that the working of Christ in them is "mighty", meaning they should clearly see it.

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Paul says that the power of God is mightily at work in the Corinthians.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Paul is telling them... "don't examine me to see if Christ is speaking through me... the work done through me has been mighty toward you. Don't you know that you have Christ inside of you? Consult the Holy Spirit which bears witness inside of you if Christ is speaking through me. This will work .. .unless of course you don't have Christ in you... but we know that Christ is in us, and he is in you, so this will work."

Then your answer would be that we know Jesus Christ is in us because we agree with the teaching of Paul?

If Jesus Christ is in us we will agree with Paul's teaching. Now this raises another issue, some who claim Jesus Christ is in them will say that Paul teaches faith alone for salvation, yet other people who claim Jesus Christ is in them will say Paul teaches faith plus works for salvation.

Although the context you present is correct, I still believe the call for the examination goes beyond consenting to Paul's teaching or authority. I believe Paul has declared that one should know how Jesus Christ is in them and I don't think scripture teaches that agreeing with Paul proves one is in the faith.

What is the only thing that proves to yourself that you have Jesus Christ in you? It would have to be something that a lost person could not do or know.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: What is the only thing that proves to yourself that you have Jesus Christ in you? It would have to be something that a lost person could not do or know.

HP: and it is ………..

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gup20: Paul is telling them... "don't examine me to see if Christ is speaking through me... the work done through me has been mighty toward you. Don't you know that you have Christ inside of you? Consult the Holy Spirit which bears witness inside of you if Christ is speaking through me. This will work .. .unless of course you don't have Christ in you... but we know that Christ is in us, and he is in you, so this will work."

HP: I think your imagination is working overtime. Paul neither said or insinuated any such thing.

 

[steaver]

HP: I think your imagination is working overtime. Paul neither said or insinuated any such thing.

I believe GUP's commentary is correct on this except for the last sentence ( "and he is in you, so this will work" ), but the Corinthians were doubting Paul's authority and were continuing in the sin that Paul told them to rid themselves of. Paul was doubting they had the Spirit of Christ because they were continuing in sin without remorse and were doubting his authority to declare the word of God. Paul rightly believed that the Holy Spirit within a saved person would bring a saved person into agreement with God's word being spoken.

:godisgood:

 

[Gup20]

Then your answer would be that we know Jesus Christ is in us because we agree with the teaching of Paul?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Actually, it is God's teaching delivered through Paul.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Holy Spirit within us bears witness whether the teaching is true or not. That is all Paul is trying to say... don't rely on him, but let the Holy Spirit within them (if they are saved and not 'reprobates') bear witness that what he (Paul) is saying is true.

If Jesus Christ is in us we will agree with Paul's teaching. Now this raises another issue, some who claim Jesus Christ is in them will say that Paul teaches faith alone for salvation, yet other people who claim Jesus Christ is in them will say Paul teaches faith plus works for salvation.

Anyone who teaches faith plus works for salvation as being something Paul is preaching isn't paying very close attention to what Paul preaches. I think Paul does advocate that person's works demonstrates their true faith, but not that works are required for salvation.

Although the context you present is correct, I still believe the call for the examination goes beyond consenting to Paul's teaching or authority. I believe Paul has declared that one should know how Jesus Christ is in them and I don't think scripture teaches that agreeing with Paul proves one is in the faith.

Paul didn't operate in his own authority, his authority came from God. Furthermore, Paul borrows tremendously from the Hebrew Scriptures in all of his teachings and writings.

I believe GUP's commentary is correct on this except for the last sentence ( "and he is in you, so this will work" ), but the Corinthians were doubting Paul's authority and were continuing in the sin that Paul told them to rid themselves of. Paul was doubting they had the Spirit of Christ because they were continuing in sin without remorse and were doubting his authority to declare the word of God. Paul rightly believed that the Holy Spirit within a saved person would bring a saved person into agreement with God's word being spoken.

I think that is a good interpretation. Though the reason I said "and he is in you" is because of verse 6:
2Cr 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
I gave the Corinthians the benefit of the doubt that "we" was Paul including them and he -- after all, he was writing to the believers at Corinth.

2Cr 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

So "we" could mean Paul and the Corinthian church, or it could mean Paul and Timothy. I was giving the Corinthian church the benefit of the doubt.

 

[steaver]

Gup20;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Actually, it is God's teaching delivered through Paul.

Thanks for clearing that up brother. :thumbsup:

Gup20;

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Holy Spirit within us bears witness whether the teaching is true or not. That is all Paul is trying to say... don't rely on him, but let the Holy Spirit within them (if they are saved and not 'reprobates') bear witness that what he (Paul) is saying is true.

I don't believe you can use Romans 8:16 as support for your commentary. Romans 8:16 says the Spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. Not whether a doctrine is true or not.

Gup20;

Anyone who teaches faith plus works for salvation as being something Paul is preaching isn't paying very close attention to what Paul preaches. I think Paul does advocate that person's works demonstrates their true faith, but not that works are required for salvation.

This is a good example why Romans 8:16 does not apply to doctrine. 2Tim 2:15 speaks about doctrine. Can I say the Holy Spirit has witnessed to me that OSAS is the truth? Could not the other side on this issue make the same claim in opposition to mine? We are to study and rightly divide the word of truth.

Gup20;

Paul didn't operate in his own authority, his authority came from God. Furthermore, Paul borrows tremendously from the Hebrew Scriptures in all of his teachings and writings.

I understand you are new here (according to your posts number, I see you actually joined in 04), so let me explain. I have been here for several years now and have only come accross one, maybe two posters who do not believe that all of the NT as we have it (translation weaknesses aside) is the inspired word of God. So when you here someone post that Paul said this or John said that it isn't any attempt to take God out of the authority behind the words. I only say this to save you some print time. :tongue3: God bless you!

Gup20;

I think that is a good interpretation. Though the reason I said "and he is in you" is because of verse 6:
2Cr 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
I gave the Corinthians the benefit of the doubt that "we" was Paul including them and he -- after all, he was writing to the believers at Corinth.

2Cr 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

So "we" could mean Paul and the Corinthian church, or it could mean Paul and Timothy. I was giving the Corinthian church the benefit of the doubt.

Understood :thumbsup: .

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

HP: I have never seen a passage of Scripture that is so plain to be so twisted and maligned than this one. It appears that anything and everything is to be examined by this text instead of the one thing it admonishes all to do, i.e., examine yourself to see if ye be of the faith. ‘Prove yourselves,’ i.e., ‘your own faith.’

It is hard to imagine one standing before the Author of the Word and trying to pass off some of the notions in it as we are witnessing on this thread, but some will, and all will have their day in His court to do so. Be certain you are right.

 

[steaver]

HP: I have never seen a passage of Scripture that is so plain to be so twisted and maligned than this one. It appears that anything and everything is to be examined by this text instead of the one thing it admonishes all to do, i.e., examine yourself to see if ye be of the faith. ‘Prove yourselves,’ i.e., ‘your own faith.’

Let's not let off the qualifier to proving yourselves in the faith....."Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you..."

How do you know that Jesus Christ is in you?

If I do good works, does this prove myself that Jesus Christ is in me?

If I do no sin, does this prove myself that Jesus Christ is in me?

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Steaver: What is the only thing that proves to yourself that you have Jesus Christ in you? It would have to be something that a lost person could not do or know.

Steaver: How do you know that Jesus Christ is in you?

If I do good works, does this prove myself that Jesus Christ is in me?

If I do no sin, does this prove myself that Jesus Christ is in me?

HP: You asked basically the same question a few posts before but never gave your response as to the answer. Do you have one in mind?

 

[steaver]

HP: You asked basically the same question a few posts before but never gave your response as to the answer. Do you have one in mind?

I believe I gave my answer already (did you read the OP?). What is your answer?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: So I find only one way to know how that Jesus Christ is in me. That is by the Spirit that God has given me and the scripture testifies that this is truth. Ro 8, John 3.

HP: I see your ‘answer’ as in reality begging the question. What evidence do you have that the Spirit of God is testifying this truth to your heart? How do you know that you are simply deceived as to believing a lie? Has God left us to simply having faith in our faith? God says that we are to test the spirits. 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are exhorted to examine ourselves. That involves introspection of our own lives and thoughts, not merely a testimony from God’s Spirit, although that in the end is the reality. It is a matter of ‘if’ our introspection reveals something, ‘then’ we can be assured that the Spirit that we are listening to testifying to our hear the truth of our standing before God is indeed in reality as God sees us. Our introspection points to ‘if’ something else is present, ‘then our faith or the spirit we are following is not in keeping with solid evidence that we are in right standing before God. The Apostle Paul is pointing us in the direction of a self examination that adds substance to our faith, clear evidence that we are not deceived as to our faith. There is one passage of Scripture that indicates what that substance consists of. Any ideas?

 

[steaver]

HP: I see your ‘answer’ as in reality begging the question. What evidence do you have that the Spirit of God is testifying this truth to your heart? How do you know that you are simply deceived as to believing a lie? Has God left us to simply having faith in our faith? God says that we are to test the spirits. 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Do you hear yourself HP? Your are speaking in circles.

I gave God's word as evidence how that I and you know that we are children of God and You say, "What evidence do you have that the Spirit of God is testifying this truth to your heart? How do you know that you are simply deceived as to believing a lie?"

Does God lie to us? The scripture declares the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit, do you claim the Holy Spirit could lie to my spirit?

Then you say. "Has God left us to simply having faith in our faith? " No, I gave you scripture that God says Spirit will testify with spirit. God says you will know by the Spirit Himself that you are a child of His. Know ye not how that Jesus Christ is in You?

God says that we are to test the spirits. 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

"God" says that we are to test the Holy Spirit? To see If the Holy Spirit is a false witness?

Answer HP, has the Holy Spirit testified to your spirit that you are a child of God? How are you sure?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I gave God's word as evidence how that I and you know that we are children of God and You say, "What evidence do you have that the Spirit of God is testifying this truth to your heart? How do you know that you are simply deceived as to believing a lie?"

Does God lie to us? The scripture declares the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit, do you claim the Holy Spirit could lie to my spirit?

HP: Deception is real. Deception happens when one believes they have the witness of the Spirit but in reality have believed a lie. The Holy Spirit does not lie, and Scripture does not lie, but man can be deceived as to the Spirit and His witness to ones heart. We are told to test the spirits. We are told to examine ourselves. But no, some on this list desire to argue away that admonition. Oh yes. They claim to have absolute knowledge of their standing before God and that without possibility of deception, so God must not have meant them when it comes to examining to see if they be of the faith. Like I said, we all will have our day in His court. Make your calling and election certain.
You say the Spirit testifies to your heart of your faith. James says, “show me thy faith without thy works but I will show you my faith by my works for faith without works is dead being alone.” Will dead faith save anyone? Absolutely not. If anyman is saved, there must be something else that serves as a clear testimony to be used to examine ourselves, that only a saved man would know about and could not be used by any not saved, without which we are but deceived individuals. Sound familiar? It almost sounds like what you wrote a couple of posts back, but you simply reasoned in a circle by circling right back to faith alone in the Spirit alone. This simply allows room for one to be deceived as to their standing does it not? Tell me Steaver, is deception a real possibility or not? Can one think they have heard the witness of the Spirit, and in the end find out that they have been deceived or simply deceived themselves? I certainly believe Scripture is replete with warnings and examples of that very thing.

 

[steaver]

HP; If anyman is saved, there must be something else that serves as a clear testimony to be used to examine ourselves, that only a saved man would know about and could not be used by any not saved, without which we are but deceived individuals. Sound familiar?

Tell us then HP, how do you know you are saved and how do you know you are not decieved?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

HP:

The Holy Spirit does not lie, and Scripture does not lie, but man can be deceived as to the Spirit and His witness to ones heart.

Double talk. If the Spirit does not lie and the scripture declares it is the Spirit that testifies to our spirit that we are the children of God, then one cannot be deceived. The born of God, those who have received the Spirit, cannot be deceived by that same Spirit.

We are told to test the spirits.

Very good! We are not told to test the Spirit! We have the Spirit HP!

We are told to examine ourselves.

Yes, "know ye not how that Jesus Christ is in you"?

But you say one cannot know. Paul says you should know. I don't think you ever answered Paul's question HP. Do you know Jesus Christ is in you HP? How do you know HP? And while you are at it tell us how you know you are not deceived?

They claim to have absolute knowledge of their standing before God and that without possibility of deception

Tell us how you know you are not deceived HP. After you tell us how you know Jesus Christ is in you.

You say the Spirit testifies to your heart of your faith. James says, “show me thy faith without thy works but I will show you my faith by my works for faith without works is dead being alone.” Will dead faith save anyone? Absolutely not.

Well, we agree on something at least. True faith produces good works. I always wondered though how all of those lost people are able to do good works too? Could be another topic to explore.

there must be something else that serves as a clear testimony to be used to examine ourselves, that only a saved man would know about and could not be used by any not saved, without which we are but deceived individuals. Sound familiar?

Sounds like "Spirit testifying with spirit", but maybe you could enlighten us?

I know that unsaved persons can do good works and I know that saved persons can sin, but you tell us what you know HP and tell us how you know you are not being deceived about what you know.

Tell me Steaver, is deception a real possibility or not? Can one think they have heard the witness of the Spirit, and in the end find out that they have been deceived or simply deceived themselves? I certainly believe Scripture is replete with warnings and examples of that very thing.

All I have to offer you HP is scripture which you seem to not want to accept. Are you "born of God"? The only way to know is by the Spirit testifying that you are, so if God does not tell us we are in Jesus Christ then I don't know how else we could know.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: All I have to offer you HP is scripture which you seem to not want to accept. Are you "born of God"?

HP: That is as clear of a violation of the rules of this forum as can possibly be imagined. You directly questioned my salvation. Moderator please.

 

[steaver]

HP: That is as clear of a violation of the rules of this forum as can possibly be imagined. You directly questioned my salvation. Moderator please.

Now brother ,you are getting frustrated. I know you understand rhetorical questions, how about answering the questions in the post. You don't need to answer the rhetorical one.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You don't need to answer the rhetorical one.

HP: I am not frustrated in the least. I have been on this forum long enough to see good men banned for even the false accusation of questing another’s salvation. Here you do it openly for all to see. You are in direct violation of the rules for questioning my salvation whether or not I decide to answer your question or not.

 

[steaver]

HP: I am not frustrated in the least. I have been on this forum long enough to see good men banned for even the false accusation of questing another’s salvation. Here you do it openly for all to see. You are in direct violation of the rules for questioning my salvation whether or not I decide to answer your question or not.

Tell you what I will do, I will restructure my comment in hope to not offend you.

You said,

Tell me Steaver, is deception a real possibility or not? Can one think they have heard the witness of the Spirit, and in the end find out that they have been deceived or simply deceived themselves? I certainly believe Scripture is replete with warnings and examples of that very thing.

My revised reply,

All I have to offer you HP is scripture which you seem to not want to accept. Am I "born of God"? The only way to know is by the Spirit testifying that I am, so if God does not tell us we are in Jesus Christ then I don't know how else we could know.

There you go, I have questioned my own salvation in the rhetorical. I don't think that breaks any rules.

Now if we are finished with this rabbit trail, the questions still remain unanswered. Awaiting your repsonses....

:jesus: