How do you feel about capital punishment?

[Johnv]

Let's assume for a moment that Scriptures allow capital punishment. Does that mean that capital punishment is appropriate for us to use? Is it not preferable to choose an alternateive method, such as life without the possibility of seeing daylight?

 

[Rev. G]

God has given that power to the authorities, they must make that decision. Still, capital punishment fits the crime (for murder) and certainly deters it.

 

[Jim1999]

We should instruct our son to do what is right and,,,,,,,,,,,,if he doesn't listen, he should be stoned......scriptural.

And the prostitutes should be stoned......

And any number of persons should be stoned.....

Thank you very much, I shall move beyond barbarism, and show mercy in the hope that one may be led in a path that is right.

It is amazing that many will condemn a woman for having an abortion under any circumstances, but will gladly stretch a neck despite the fact that they may be the victim of an injustice at human hands.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Johnv]

Hi Jim. You used a good word. Barbarism.

Strictly my view:

Capital punishment is not sinful when used in extreme cases. It is not a sin for a Christian to hold that view in matters of legal remedy.

On the flip side, wanting to eliminate capital punishment is also not sinful.

The deciding factor for me is that it is barbaric for the society we live in. Therefore, while I'm not against the death penalty, I'm in favor of replacing it with life imprisonment.

 

[rsr]

I have waffled on this for many years.

Currently, I believe capital punishment should be reserved for particularly heinous crimes -- Tim McVeigh, perhaps, or bin Laden.

I think we do way too much killing in the name of the law; we are fallible and make mistakes. Capital punishment is one that can't be undone.

 

[go2church]

Isn't this thread in the wrong place?

 

[donnA]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Though capital punishment may irrevocably punish an innocent party it must be said that that is a risk worth taking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie says "A risk worth taking? That would be state sanctioned murder, killing someone innocent of the accused crime is nothing but murder to satisify our thrist for blood.
If we as a country murder innocent people then we are the ones sinning against God."

If we are deliberately executing the innocent, then of course you are right, but this hardly constitutes "capital punishment properly applied."

Maybe you should go back and read again, the quote I was responding to says " Though capital punishment may irrevocably punish an innocent party it must be said that that is a risk worth taking." You do not find a problem with this?

I agree. No one should be executed if there is the slightest doubt about their guilt, and it behoves those in authority to establish their prosecution beyond ALL reasonable doubt.

Beyond all reasonable doubt, and yet some innocents are being executed, thast murder for the sake of murder, and calling it legal.

Lets see if we follow O.T. leagal punishments, then most of us have to stone our children.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
[QB]We should instruct our son to do what is right and,,,,,,,,,,,,if he doesn't listen, he should be stoned......scriptural.

And the prostitutes should be stoned......

And any number of persons should be stoned.....

According to Bob Dylan, yes.

It is amazing that many will condemn a woman for having an abortion under any circumstances, but will gladly stretch a neck despite the fact that they may be the victim of an injustice at human hands.

So then you see no moral difference between a convicted murderer and an innocent little baby?

Mike

There is a Fountain that was not made by the hands of man - Robert Hunter

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by Jim1999:


It is amazing that many will condemn a woman for having an abortion under any circumstances, but will gladly stretch a neck despite the fact that they may be the victim of an injustice at human hands.

Cheers,

Jim

So you would kill the innocent and spare the guilty. How barbaric indeed.

 

[Abiyah]

Before I answer these posts, let me clarify my
position, please. I am angry at no one, and if I
have proven anything in life, it is that I certainly
do not know everything; furthermore, many of
the things I have thought I had known I learned
later were erroneous. I am here to learn as well
as to state opinions as do others.

I am not a teacher or a preacher; merely a
student of the Bible and a seeker for Truth.
My husband and I discuss theological ideas,
debating and walking away friends. So far, so
good here as well, but I just mainly want anyone
who bothers to read my posts to know that I have
no malice toward any on this board who disagree
with me.

That said . . .

originally posted by D Moore:
[qiote]I understand what you are saying and I
agree that ultimately Pilate had no power
to kill Christ, but that which was given to
Him from God. But it is that same Divine
authority that permits goverments to
exercise capital punishment upon capital
offenders. It is no more a case of murder
than the soldier who kills others in war.
Does not Romans 13 teach that God gives
authority to the "higher powers" including
the right to wield the sword against wrong
doers?

Our Lord God does give that authority to
governments as they follow His Law. Our
government is not following His Law.
Where, in Romans 13, or anywhere else, does
our God give blanket authority to any govern-
ment to take a life when it is not in war?

And war is totally different from capital
punishment; there is no comparison.

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
. . . Does Jesus ever teach capital punishment?

Does Paul ever teach capital punishment?

I believe that our Lord and the Father are One.
I believe that our Lord is the Word who was with
the Father from the beginning. As the Word, I
believe that He was the One who gave the Law
and that it is relevant then and it is relevant
today. I believe that the reason Moshe's face
shone was because he got the Law from the
Son and he saw His glory. (No one has seen our
God the Father and lived, but Moshe saw God
upon the mountain and lived.)

Therefore, our Lord taught capital punishment
and He gave the rigid rules by which it should be
carried out. Since most here only accept what is
reiterated in the Apostolic Scriptures, where in
them does our Lord say that capital punishment
must continue? The woman caught in adultry?
Both she and the male(s), although our Lord
knew exactly who they were, were let go
because the pattern of Law was not followed
specifically.

Does Paul teach capital punishment? As I said,
I certainly do not know everything, but I do not
recall him writing of it.

 

[Jim1999]

It is obvious that posts are not read correctly. Is my English unclear?

I never supported abortion. I said many condemn a woman under any circumstances, even when one is medically essential. Many a D&C is done on fine Christian women....this is essentially an abortion...it happens often after conception...............Yet, the same people are prepared to kill an innocent.....INNOCENT......person for a crime accused.

The old concept of crime deterrence resolved by capital punishment is long gone. When picking pockets was a hanging offence in Upper Canada and done in public view, men and boys picked pockets in the crowd viewing the hanging.

Texas has the highest rate of executions of all the states and one of the highest rates of capital offences. China exceeds Texas in both executions and capital crimes.

All I really ask is that a post be read carefully and accurately.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[g'day mate]

What punnishment would you give to those who are responsible for sept 11
If you need somebody to carry the death sentence
you will not need to look far
John

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by g'day mate:
What punnishment would you give to those who are responsible for sept 11
If you need somebody to carry the death sentence
you will not need to look far
John

Since this was not addressed to anyone in
particular, I will answer.

For those terrorists who died in the crashes:
I would put their bodies together in a single
crematorium and cremate them all. I would
then thorough mix their ashes, then divide them
into five parts. One fifth would go to each of
the following:
1. my pastor
2. a rabbi
3. a fundamentalist baptist pastor
4. a Jesus-Only preacher
5. and a R. Catholic priest.
Each would know exactly who these combined
ashes in their hands were, and each would be
asked to give them an appropriate burial. Now,
let your imagination go.

For those who remain alive, I Hate War--every-
thing about it--but there are times when it is
necessary for the preservation of a country.
War is not capital punishment.

As far as those involved who are in the States
and other Western countries, I would prosecute
them to the fullest extent of the law, then put
them in prison for the number of lifetimes equal
to the number of people who died, and I do not
mean solitary confinement.

However, if our country really followed the Laws
of our God, I would want capital punishment.

And this numb-skulled scum-of-the-earth, on
the East Coast who is shooting up innocent
people, would get the same.

[ October 23, 2002, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[LadyEagle]

The conversation on this thread is preposterous! Every civilized Western nation including the United States continues to enact capital punishment - it's called legalized abortion.

 

[Daniel David]

Jesus made a very specific reference to capital punishment. Was he for it or agin' it?

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
Jesus made a very specific reference to capital punishment. Was he for it or agin' it?

Mark 12: [17] And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

It is power vested into governments just as war & taxation.

Capital punishment was also one of the first laws handed down to Moses after the flood in Genesis in the passage previously quoted, pre-10 commandments stating thou shalt not "murder."

For those against capital punishment, how many murders does one have to commit to be eligible to be put to death?

1 - 5?

6 - 10?

11 - 25?

26 or more?

How many child abductions, rapes, and murders must be committed to qualify one for capital punishment?

1-5?

Or more?

The states which have capital punishment laws on the books also administer capital punishment in a very humane way, by lethal injection - the criminal is put to sleep and then administered the poisonous mix of drugs that will shut down his/her cardiopulmonary systems and vital organs.

They no longer face a firing squad. They are no longer hung from a gallows. The are no longer gassed or electricuted. And they don't suffer the torture, emotional trauma, physical and sexual suffering many inflict on their unfortunate victims.

Perhaps if anyone on these boards had been a true victim of criminality, like having a child abducted, mutilated, raped and then hacked to pieces, some of your views would change.

Or if you were the relative of some of these sniper killings in the beltway.

Or if your mother had been tied up, raped, had chunks of flesh bitten off and then stabbed multiple times, you would feel differently.

Or if your son had been the victim of a Charles Gacy or daughter a victim of Ted Bundy.

Until you walk a mile in the victim's or relatives of a victim's shoes, you have no right to say capital punishment is wrong.

Tell that to the victims of hideous crimes. There IS, unfortunately, EVIL in the world.

Our judicial system goes overboard in protecting the rights of criminals. They tie up our courts with appeals for years.

Give me a break!

 

[Daniel David]

Actually Sheeagle, that wasn't the reference I was thinking of. He makes a direct reference to it.

 

[LadyEagle]

Okay, go ahead & paste it up here.

Here's an interesting article I found, though.

The bodies of the three teenage girls murdered by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before the students of the Christian prayer group that was shot at announced, "We forgive you, Mike," referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the murderer.

This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, the idea that a central message of Christianity is to forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents, has been adopted by much of Christendom.

The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. But one other recent example stands out. In August, the pastor at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that it was the the duty of all Christians to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the murderer of 168 Americans. "I invite you to look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and then forgive him," the Rev. John Miller said in his sermon. "I have, and I ask you to do so."

The pastor acknowledged: "Considering what he did, that may be a formidable task. But it is the one that we as Christians are asked to do."

Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed and that despite theological differences, there is indeed a Judeo-Christian value system that has served as the bedrock of American civilization. For these reasons I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness.


This doctrine undermines the moral foundations of American civilization because it advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt other people, millions of your fellow citizens will immediately forgive you. This doctrine destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness - that forgiveness, even by God, is contingent on the sinner repenting, and that it can only be given to the sinner by the one against whom he sinned.

These tenets are unambiguously affirmed in Luke 17:3-4: "And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him."

This flies in the face of what passes for Christianity these days - the declaration, often repeated, that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people - presumably because he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others.

You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right - and those they murdered are dead and therefore cannot forgive them. (Indeed, that is why I believe that humans cannot forgive a murderer.) If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do - even if we do not repent, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do to anybody, God and his forgiveness are entirely unnecessary. Those who forgive all evil done to others have substituted themselves for God.

http://www.murdervictims.com/Forgiveness.htm

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/

 

[donnA]

he bodies of the three teenage girls murdered by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before the students of the Christian prayer group that was shot at announced, "We forgive you, Mike," referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the murderer.

As a side note Sheeagle, my pastor was pastor to one of those girls, Jessica James, he was the one who baptized her, his wife lead her to the Lord, and she and several others from his previous church preformed some interpetive dance at our church just months before the shooting, I met her, it was a major blow to our church. Her parents now speak at churches, although I haven't had the oppertunity to hear them, as I understand from my pastor, it's about forgiveness. My pastor did Jessicas funeral.