How do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?

[J. Jump]

That when God indwells the believer there is no change?

Absolutely there is a change. But it's not an automatic change in how a person lives, but a change from a dead spirit to a living spirit.

Is God ineffective?

Absolutely not. It is guaranted that at the very moment you believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as the payment for your sin the Holy Spirit IS going to make alive your dead spirit. It is an absolute.

He is 100% effective. The issue is we have to know what He is doing.

Why would God indwell a person if there was going to be no change? What would be the point?

A couple of great questions. God indwells a person through His Spirit so that the person is capable of learning and growning and doing the works that God has intended for them to do. Without the Holy Spirit we could do none of those things.

However, it is not an absolute guarantee that the person is going to want to learn, want to grow or allow the Spirit to work through their bodies to do the things that God has intended for them to do.

We sometime forget that when folks are saved they are babies. Amy I don't know if you are a parent or not, but I have two small children and they were not brought into this world knowing how to do the right thing, nor desiring to do the right thing. Those things are learned not automatic.

Baby Christians are the same way. They must be taught to walk in the Spirit and what that means. They must be encouraged to do the right thing. They must be taught that God demands obedience and faithfulness, and that those things are possible, but they are not automatic.

If obedience and faithfulness and good works and a changed life were absolute guarantees then again there would be no need to commmand or demand those things would there?

Why are we told not to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit if a changed life is automatic and those are not things that we would do?

 

[J. Jump]

The converse of a statement is never given.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement or not. Where is Scripture are we told that the converse of a statement is not a given? Is that God's rule or man's rule?

What are your examples?

The possibility remains that the believer not abiding in Christ will bear little fruit. Christ prunes the branches to produce more fruit...not to produce some fruit.

Let's look at the verse again and see if a believer not abiding in Christ is capable of bearing little fruit instead of much fruit as you say.

Jesus said: "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5, NKJV).

Sorry, but Scriptures disagrees with you. We are capable of NOTHING outside of Christ. There is ZERO acceptable fruit bearing going on outside of abiding in Christ.

There is fruit bearing, but again it is rotten fruit. Without Christ we are incapable of ZERO.

 

[webdog]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement or not. Where is Scripture are we told that the converse of a statement is not a given? Is that God's rule or man's rule?

What are your examples?

Basic grammar...

If I state that everyone at my church likes chicken, the converse of that is everyone who doesn't go to my church hates chicken. Is this a true statement? John 6:44 state that all that come to Christ were drawn by the Father. The converse of that statement is those who do not come to Christ were never drawn (how calvinism reads it). True statement?

Sorry, but Scriptures disagrees with you. We are capable of NOTHING outside of Christ. There is ZERO acceptable fruit bearing going on outside of abiding in Christ.

There is fruit bearing, but again it is rotten fruit. Without Christ we are incapable of ZERO.

Christ said He would never leave us nor forsake us. Let me ask you what kind of fruit this is: There is a believer who's relationship with Christ is not healthy...he's carnal. He hears a non believer ask someone how to be saved. The carnal christian tells the non believer the plan of salvation. The lost person gets saved from the carnal christian sharing the Gospel. Is his work wood, hay and stubble (self motivated), or gold and silver?

 

[Amy.G]

J., Not sure yet, but I think we're on the same page on this. I agree that some things don't come automatically. There has to be an effort on our part. However, when a person receives the Holy Spirit, their thinking is changed and they have desires for spiritual things that they did not have before. This will over time influence their behavior. How can it not?

 

[J. Jump]

However, when a person receives the Holy Spirit, their thinking is changed and they have desires for spiritual things that they did not have before. This will over time influence their behavior. How can it not?

Again even our thinking is not automatically changed. To a degree yes, but not absolutely. The Bible says we are to have our minds renewed. Again if this has already taken place then why would we be told that our mind needed to be renewed?

How can it not . . . well the flesh is very powerful and some are not willing to overcome it. It's take a great deal of effort and a great deal of time and it is very costly to die to self. And some folks just don't want to.

The biggest problem with the every life is changed and every does what they are supposed to eventually theory is that leads to the everybody is okay and will get their little slice of heaven when they die and everyone will rule and reign with Christ, becuase everyone is faithful and everyone is an overcomer and everyone is obedient. When the Truth of the matter is quite the opposite.

Not everyone that stands at the JSOC is going to receive a good reward. And not everyone is going to rule and reign with Christ. There are those that are going to lose their inheritance.

Not we are getting into some more meaty subjects, but this idea that all Christians are okay and will do good and will think right, etc. leads to some bigger mis-steps down the road.

 

[Amy.G]

OK, not on the same page yet. What do YOU think happens when the Holy Spirit indwells us? I personally have never seen ANYONE who has received the Holy Spirit at salvation NOT experience a change. Maybe those that didn't experience ANY change at all need to re-examine their commitment to Christ.
We are not always going to be obedient. Sometimes we listen to the flesh. Paul speaks of this battle. But after we receive the Holy Spirit we change directions and begin to walk that narrow path instead of the broad way to destruction.

 

[Amy.G]

Not we are getting into some more meaty subjects, but this idea that all Christians are okay and will do good and will think right, etc. leads to some bigger mis-steps down the road.

I never said this. Total misunderstanding here.

 

[J. Jump]

If I state that everyone at my church likes chicken, the converse of that is everyone who doesn't go to my church hates chicken. Is this a true statement? John 6:44 state that all that come to Christ were drawn by the Father. The converse of that statement is those who do not come to Christ were never drawn (how calvinism reads it). True statement?

Webdog sorry I missed your posting yesterday. Not sure how that happened, but it did

I would agree with the example that you have given here, not because the converse isn't true, but that we are told the converse of this statement is true elsewhere in Scripture.

There is a believer who's relationship with Christ is not healthy...he's carnal. He hears a non believer ask someone how to be saved. The carnal christian tells the non believer the plan of salvation. The lost person gets saved from the carnal christian sharing the Gospel. Is his work wood, hay and stubble (self motivated), or gold and silver?

The only way to answer that question is by what the Bible tells us. If we are walking in the flesh there is not one single work that will be able to stand the fire of judgment. Is it possible for that carnal Christian to die to self and walk in the Spirit for that moment I suppose so.

But the Bible is plainly clear that outside of Christ we can do absolutely nothing.

So the question is can something as Godly as witnessing and sharing the gospel be wood, hay and stuble and the answer is absolutely it can. If it is down out of the wrong motivation or for selfish gain it will not stand the fire.

The folks that cried Lord, Lord did some really amazing and Godly things, but they were called workers of iniquity, so when they stand before the judgment seat of Christ those works will burn.

 

[J. Jump]

OK, not on the same page yet.

Yeah I didn't think so

What do YOU think happens when the Holy Spirit indwells us?

I already answered that. He makes our dead spirit come to life so that we can be taught and so that we can know how to die to self to allow Him to work through our members.

It doesn't mean it will happen, but the possibilities are there that it can happen if we will let it.

I personally have never seen ANYONE who has received the Holy Spirit at salvation NOT experience a change.

That is good news. However, we can not go on personal experiences alone, but must test our experiences with Scripture. Scripture does not teach that obedience is guaranteed. Scripture doesn't teach that works that will be considered gold, silver and precious stones are guaranteed. Scripture doesn't teach that faithfulness is guaranteed. Scripture doesn't teach that overcoming is guaranteed.

Maybe those that didn't experience ANY change at all need to re-examine their commitment to Christ.

EXACTLY! But committing one's life to Christ is not spiritual salvation. That is discipleship, and discipleship comes ONLY AFTER spiritual salvation has been taken care of.

We are not always going to be obedient.

But I'm not talking about some slip ups. I'm talking about folks that are persistant in their walk in the flesh. Of course faithful, obedient, overcomers are going to have lapses, but those folks aren't the point of the discussion.

But after we receive the Holy Spirit we change directions and begin to walk that narrow path instead of the broad way to destruction.

Again where is the Scriptural support that this is an automatic?

Quote:
Not we are getting into some more meaty subjects, but this idea that all Christians are okay and will do good and will think right, etc. leads to some bigger mis-steps down the road.

I never said this. Total misunderstanding here.

No these weren't your exact words, but isn't this what you believe? If you say that ALL Christians will change and that ALL Christians are going to do good works and that ALL Christians are going to think the right way, etc., aren't you saying that all Christians are okay and going to get their little piece of heaven? Granted some are going to have bigger pieces than others, but everyone is going to experience good things, becuase they were all changed here on earth right?

 

[Amy.G]

J., This is really a silly argument. When God's spirit dwells within you, you are having an encounter with God Himself. You cannot encounter God and stay the same. Was Moses the same after his encounter with God? Abraham, Job? The apostles? Me? You? Whether we're talking about old testament (God speaking directly) or new covenant (Holy Spirit), it's still God Himself speaking, teaching, empowering. I believe you are saying that God's spirit can dwell in a person and that person can still reject the teachings and promptings of the Holy Spirit. Even as born again believers we can and do follow the flesh sometimes, but this is not the same as living a lifestyle of rebellion. I believe that if a person says they have received the Holy Spirit and has never experienced change, then that person is deceived.

 

[webdog]

I believe you are saying that God's spirit can dwell in a person and that person can still reject the teachings and promptings of the Holy Spirit. Even as born again believers we can and do follow the flesh sometimes, but this is not the same as living a lifestyle of rebellion.

How is this not the same

Is there a certain timeframe Scripture mentions in regards to how long a believer can walk in the flesh before it is proven they were never justified? Lot comes to mind as someone declared "righteos" but living a carnal life. I'm ashamed to admit the same happened with me for many years, but the Holy Spirit continued to convict and chasten me even in that state.

 

[Amy.G]

How is this not the same

Is there a certain timeframe Scripture mentions in regards to how long a believer can walk in the flesh before it is proven they were never justified? Lot comes to mind as someone declared "righteos" but living a carnal life. I'm ashamed to admit the same happened with me for many years, but the Holy Spirit continued to convict and chasten me even in that state.

Sorry, I should have said a life of rebellion not lifestyle.

 

[J. Jump]

J., This is really a silly argument.

I disagree. I think it is absolutely critical. What you are espousing is really the underpinnings of Lordship salvation, which is extremely dangerous. It is a backloaded works salvation and it can be terribly destructive to believers.

When God's spirit dwells within you, you are having an encounter with God Himself. You cannot encounter God and stay the same.

Again that is a nice statement, but it's just not backed up with Scripture.

Was Moses the same after his encounter with God? Abraham, Job? The apostles? Me? You?

You give five examples here out of millions? billions? of Christians and we are supposed to say that this applies to all those millions or billions, becuase it happened to five?

What about Lot as Webdog asked? He never got it. Was Lot saved?

I believe you are saying that God's spirit can dwell in a person and that person can still reject the teachings and promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely they can and do. Why do you think we have so many denominations? Do you think they are all right? Do you think there is only one denomination of "saved" folks and all the rest are unsaved (and there is a denomination or two that think this way)?

If you think folks of all denominations can be and are in fact saved then you have proven that to be an accurate statement, becuase some of the "saved" folks are rejecting the doctrinal teachings of Scriptures for the doctrinal teachings of man.

Even as born again believers we can and do follow the flesh sometimes, but this is not the same as living a lifestyle of rebellion.

You are right those are two separate things. And as I tried to clarify in my previous post I am speaking of Christians that are living a lifestyle and even those that live an entire life of rebellion.

I believe that if a person says they have received the Holy Spirit and has never experienced change, then that person is deceived.

With all due respect and no ill meant it doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what webdog believes or Joe Blow or Sally Sue. The only thing that matters is Scripture and Scripture clearly shows that we are capable of living a life of unbelief, unfaithfulness and disobedience and still be saved. Now there will be severe consequences for this choice, but eternity is secure for the believer, despite what others might want us to think.

 

[Amy.G]

Again that is a nice statement, but it's just not backed up with Scripture.

What do you mean it's not backed up with scripture? Don't you know that the Holy Spirit is God? If God dwells in you, you have certainly had an encounter with God. Are you going to tell me there's no scripture that says that God dwells in the believer? And I don't even know what Lordship salvation is. I'd never even heard of that or Calvinism or Arminianism (sp?) until I came to this board. I just read God's word and trust the Holy Spirit to teach me. I have given you many scriptures to show how God's spirit changes us, but you have shown me ZERO to prove that He doesn't.

 

[J. Jump]

What do you mean it's not backed up with scripture?

Amy it's pretty simple . . . what you have espoused in your belief that the Holy Spirit is automatically and guaranteed to change a person so that they do the right things, think the right way, etc. is not back up with Scripture.

Don't you know that the Holy Spirit is God?

Yes I do.

If God dwells in you, you have certainly had an encounter with God.

I agree with that.

Are you going to tell me there's no scripture that says that God dwells in the believer?

No I'm not going to tell you that. That's not what we have been talking about. Of course the Holy Spirit indwells believers today. Again that's not the point. The question at hand is does the Holy Spirit force Himself on a believer and make that person change their beliefs, speech, actions and attitudes as you insist that the Holy Spirit does.

And I don't even know what Lordship salvation is.

Lordship salvation is basically what you have been describing your belief structure as . . . in that a person must prove they are saved by showing a changed life which is the result of submitting to the Lordship of Christ.

There is no Scriptural support for this belief. It is outside of Scripture.

I have given you many scriptures to show how God's spirit changes us, but you have shown me ZERO to prove that He doesn't.

Really . . . I've yet to see them. I have dealt with every Scripture that you have posted and shown you that it is not talking about what you are trying to make it talk about. You have not provided a single Scripture to support your idea.

And to say that I haven't given Scripture means you one of two things. One you haven't read my posts very closely or two you know you have been shown to be incorrect and you still want to hold onto your man-made doctrine.

The entire NT is chalk full of Scriptures that speaks against what you are talking about, and I have only give but a few of them.

Bottom line is you can continue to believe however you want to, and it looks as though your mind is already made up and you have no desire to look at anything else, so it seems that a further discussion with you on this matter would be pointless.

 

[ehaase]

If somebody questioned wether you really have the Holy Spirit then what would you say?

Ephesians 1:13 - "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise."

If you trust in Christ as your Lord and Savior, you have the Holy Spirit. Case closed.

 

[Claudia_T]

Ephesians 1:13 - "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise."

If you trust in Christ as your Lord and Savior, you have the Holy Spirit. Case closed.

you can blaspheme against the Holy Spirit

 

[donnA]

The bible says anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit in them is not His(Jesus), meaning if you belong to Him, if you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit in you. It's a matter of faith.