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How does a baby sin?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Helen, Oct 19, 2002.

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  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Good morning, folks!

    A few responses, one at a time, as best as I can do.

    1. To Ken: one sin (Adam's) was indeed enough to set us on the course we are on, but that was not the point of what I was bringing up. If we are to have the sin of one ancestor imputed to us, why not the sins of them all? What would have made that 'passing down' of sin stop with Adam? If sins can indeed be passed down in the way Calvinists claim where Adam is concerned, then the weight of sin imputed to a person grows with each passing generation. That is not biblical in the slightest!

    Now, you mentioned that you believed the very young and pre-born are regenerated by God immediately before death, should they die young. I have heard plenty of Calvinists argue against that. Your position is not logical where Calvinism is concerned, but is rather in response to your innate understanding of both justice and mercy. The point I am intent on making is that the Bible never indicates anyone is born dead in sin, only that death is the inevitable result of sin, as God told Adam, and that we are all subject to it, at least physically. But spiritually, the little ones are His. He said so. That means they are NOT spiritually dead and therefore do not have to be regenerated, only covered by His blood, which they are.

    2. To rlvaugn: please tell me what lie a baby can speak. What is there to lie about? "I'm not really hungry but I will pretend I am" ? Or, if you like, just let me know when a newborn speaks. That will definitely make medical history! It seems to me you are making the same mistake in looking at this verse as our geocentrist friends make when they say the sun goes around the earth because the Bible talks about the sun rising. You are taking the meaning out of the passage by not recognizing the idiom when you see it.

    As far as the angels of the little ones always seeing the face of the Father, that is not the spirits of the little ones, for those inhabit their bodies. It is their angels! Angels are evidently assigned to people and even places or groups of people, from what we read in the Bible. Now, if Jesus made a point of saying that the angels assigned to a certain group (in this case, children) ALWAYS see the face of the Father, then there are those angels (ours, probably) who don't. Jesus said in John 17:4 that eternal life is knowing the Father and the Son. So to me the fact that the angels of the little ones always see the face of the Father indicates that their sins, such as they are, are not held against them at all, but are automatically covered by Jesus' blood as a sacrifice for unknown, or unintentional sins until such time as the individual learns the law and then chooses to rebel against it. Those angels Jesus spoke of indicate clearly that the little ones are not 'dead' in their sins at all, but very much alive spiritually and very much belonging to God Himself until such time as they, like all of us, reach the point of conscious rebellion.

    3. To Tater Tot -- love that name! Thank you for your input. Yes, children sure are individuals right from birth, aren't they? I have often though of sin nature as about the same as having the chicken pox. Everyone who is sick with it is sick with the same disease, but the spots show up more on some than others!

    At any rate, no, we won't change anyone's mind who is in this discussion, I don't think. But I have already gotten two emails from new Christians thanking me for these threads because they felt so confused by the hopelessness they saw in Calvinism, and the cruelty. So it is worth presenting all of this for them.

    4. To our Australian mate -- G'day back at you, mate! I married a crazy Aussie and have my mother's cousin in Melbourne. Lovely city, that! OK, yes, Adam's sin was sort of like a blood disease spiritually, that got passed on to all of us. But Jesus' answer is deeper than just 'spreading' His blood. We have to be killed in our personalities -- or hearts -- to rid us of the Adamic 'disease' and then reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit, so we have new hearts in us. Hearts that don't want to sin, even though we do. Hearts that are fully repentant when we do sin, instead of making up excuses for it. Hearts that want to obey instead of disobey our Lord. In Genesis 8:21, God mentions to Noah that the hearts of all men incline, or tend, toward evil from childhood. It is that heart which is killed and a new one given. This was made possible because Christ shed His blood for us, and so we speak of being covered by His blood. But what happens inside each of us is that we are re-created to be the person God would have originally created us to be had not sin nature been our original inheritance. Does that make sense?

    5. Baptist Vine, thank you for your post. I do think that children sin, although I have serious doubts about little babies! But their sins are expressions of their inherited sin nature and not a matter of conscious rebellion for which they can be held accountable personally. However Jesus was the one sacrifice for all, which means He was also the sacrifice for the unintentional and unconscious sins (which was also one of the Old Testament sacrifices), and thus the children are covered.

    6. Scott B., men are not condemned because of anyone's sin. Jesus died for that purpose. Men are condemned for refusing Jesus. And no one is arguing that death has not 'reigned' for all. We all are not only subject to spiritual death when sin nature 'flowers' in to conscious, deliberate rebellion, but physical death as well. Christ dealt with both.

    As far as not hearing the gospel of grace, please read Romans 2. God knows how to judge. Will not the judge of the whole earth do right? If you have followed in any of the other related threads, you will also know that I have stated that the truth of the fall and the rescue of Noah through the flood as well as the gospel itself written clearly in the stars, as God reminded Abraham, has been known from the earliest of times and has survived in one way or another in every culture. And, like the Old Testament folk, those who believed on the Promise of God were believing on Jesus Christ, who is that Promise fulfilled and God Himself.

    You then mentioned that if God's cause were not the cause of the baby crying, the baby was sinning! I can only assume you are not a father! Or that you have not paid much attention to your children. Personality traits, number one, are not sins. Anger, number two, in a tiny baby, is not even present. They experience discomfort and cry about that. Some cry more easily than others, and so we say they are 'tempermental', but that is our problem, not theirs! I thought my oldest daughter had a nasty temper problem as she did not sleep through the night for three years and screamed often. When she was sixteen she was diagnosed with a rare malfunctioning of the autonomic nervous system. I can look back and cringe when I realize that she was dealing with physical pain associated with this from BIRTH! What else was she to do but sob her little heart out, especially when mommy got angry with the crying?

    7. And, finally, grasshopper, the concept of guilt for something is because of something the person him or herself has done. Not for something someone else has done, Adam or otherwise! A baby born blind to a syphalitic mother is NOT guilty of his mother's disease but is paying for it nevertheless. There is a VAST difference.
     
    #81 Helen, Oct 20, 2002
  2. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Very interesting approach. Not appreciated, just
    interesting. I will not respond to your apparent
    attempt to patronize me.

    I have never been around any baby that ever cried
    without just cause.

    [ October 20, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
    #82 Abiyah, Oct 20, 2002
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Oh, yeah, and thank you for your input here, Abiyah!
     
    #83 Helen, Oct 20, 2002
  4. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Abiyah,
    I apologize if you felt "patronized". Forgive me for my curt manner. I could have presented that in another form....sorry.

    Helen,
    I have seen many a baby mix anger w/ their tears!
    ps...I have two daughters. One 19 in college, the other, 16 years old, lives w/ me and my wife. Both are my test references.
     
    #84 Scott_Bushey, Oct 20, 2002
  5. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Maybe they had something to be angry about, Scott...

    nevertheless, I have never seen actual anger in a new baby.

    fear, yes. pain, yes. discomfort, yes.

    anger, no.

    And even if she were angry, who is to say she is sinning in her anger?

    [ October 20, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
    #85 Helen, Oct 20, 2002
  6. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Helen writes:
    And even if she were angry, who is to say she is sinning in her anger?

    Yes Helen, I think we have gotten it! Anger equates TWO possibilities........
    1) Anger w/out sin
    2) Anger w/ sinning

    Based upon your premise, babies sin, because babies get angry. Sin can be one of the two products to anger. Unless of course the babies develop the second characteristic later in growth development....You may be hard pressed to support this idea.
     
    #86 Scott_Bushey, Oct 20, 2002
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    The Bible says "IN your anger, do not sin." It NEVER says anger is a sin.

    Scott, I don't think babies sin. There is no way for them to sin. They have NO concept of any law, only of their own being and whether or not life is comfortable or uncomfortable!

    And there is no commandment anywhere in the Bible saying "Thou shalt not be angry."

    We are simply told that in our anger we should not sin. Sins are defined by the law.

    In your anger do not blaspheme God.

    In your anger do not dishonor your parents.

    In your anger, do not commit adultery.

    In your anger, do not steal or bear false testimony.

    In your anger, do not treat your neighbor with any less consideration than you are treating yourself.

    How can a baby sin, even if she can get angry -- which I don't think happens for at least several months after birth, if not a full year.
     
    #87 Helen, Oct 20, 2002
  8. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hello Again,
    Another Way Of Looking At This..Babies Lying To God..This is Assumed from The End Results Of The Observed actions.
    Adam Chose..He Brought Death Into His World...Entropy. God Cannot Live Inside Adam Because His Body Is Imperfect....Its "Cursed".

    The Baby Being Born Is Born With A Body That Contains Entropy. God Cannot Live In The Body. The Baby only Has One Way To Determine How To Live.
    Sensory Perception..Hearing,Smelling,Tasting,Touching..Determining motive and End Resulting Actvities...There Should Be Two Choices To Choose From. But there Really Isn't....

    1) God Directing The Babies Human Body, Its Will, Its Desires
    *But He Cant Because The Body Contains Death*

    2) The Baby Can React To Its External World and Re-Act With Its Sensory Perceptions Of Its Human Body..Hearing, Tasting, Touching, Feeling..Independent of Gods Will

    Its Impossible For The Baby To Choose To Act Differently..Its Only Got One Choice.
    In His Fallen State , Man Says "I Will Be Perfect"."I Will Be Like The Most High (God)
    * He Cant.... He's Lying*

    Remember..Genesis and Eve
    Gen 3:6 And When the Woman Saw That The Tree Was Good for Food, and That it Was Pleasant to The Eyes, and a Tree To Be Desired to Make One Wise, She Took of The Fruit Thereof, and Did Eat, and Gave also unto The Husband with Her: And He Did Eat..
    Gen 3:7 And The Eyes of Them both were Opened, and They Knew That They Were Naked:
    and they Sewd Fig Leaves together, and Made themselves Aprons.

    Eve Saw..Good For Food..Taste or Nutrition..Was She Hungry?..Pleasant To The Eyes..
    Whats Pleasant..And Not Pleasant?
    A Tree To Be Desired..Interesting..It Was Drawing Her Attention Somehow? Mentally..
    ....Lust of the Eyes, Lust of The Flesh, Pride Of Life..I Think She Lied, She "Sinned" (or Coveted) Before The Outward Expression Occurred..She Ate..Her Sensory Perceptions Were Working And She Was Controlling Them, not God..God Should Have Given Eve Desires For Her To Fulfill..Not Her Concluding What She Should Be and Not Be Doing..Its 100% Submission To Gods Will..

    Her Carnal mind Thinking, Desiring The Food, Seperated Her From God..Physically...
    Spiritually It Was The Law..Dont Do That..Her Selfish Carnal Mindset Won.

    The Baby Doesn't Have The Luxury of Gods Spirit At Birth..The Body Dissallows His Presents In Their Body. The Baby Only Has One Conclusive Reaction..Carnal Thinking...and Acting.

    The Original Curse Caused The Decay Into This World That Negates Gods Presents..
    We Can Only Act One Way..Carnally..With Our Own Minds..

    So..Enter God "By Faith" and The Renewing of The Mind!

    When We Are Born Again...Anything Actually Happen?..Nope! We Project "By Faith"..
    Do We Receive A New Spirit?... Nope!..A Projected "Faith of Having A New Spirit"..
    The Holy Spirit is "Sealing Us"..
    He Doesnt Reside In Us Physically..He Can't..Our Bodies Are Cursed...

    All The While...We Are Actually "Projecting" Into "The New Heaven" and "The New Earth".

    After Death of The Body..We Receive A New Body..One That Can Contain Gods Pure Spirit.
    We Live In A World Of Covenant Promises..A Futuristic State Of Being..."By Faith".By Agreement of Mans Carnal Mind and Gods Word..A Covenant of Words.."By Faith".

    Or We Say (In A Different Way) Our (New) Spirits Agreeing With Gods Spirit..."By Faith"

    We Can Only Renew Our Minds...Our Carnal Minds..We Agree With God.."By Faith" We Agree That God "Is" and a Supplier Of "Good" Things. That He Died For Our Decayed Spiritual Condition..Our Substitution..
    It Is All Agree "By Faith"..Things That Have Happened in The Past, Things That Are Happening in The Present, and Things That Will Happen In The Future..

    Religion Says that These Babies (whom Died) Are or, Even Can Become A Part Of "The Elect"...

    Do We Know If God Drew Them..That They Confirm Themselves To Be A Sinner, Accept Jesus As Savior, As Lord ?

    Can They Renew Their Minds,.. Live By Faith,.. Progress Through Stages Of Spiritual Growth By Faith..Children, Young Men, Fathers..Have Their Experiences Been Tried By Fire..Proving Their Knowledge of Who They Are..Can They Witness To Experiences of Receiving The Mercies Of God..... as Becoming "Sons Of God"..or The Literal "Body of Christ".

    It Makes Ya Wonder........and It Ain't Easy..."By Faith"

    Me2
     
    #88 Me2, Oct 20, 2002
  9. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Me2, In Romans 8:9, we read that anyone who belongs to Christ has the Holy Spirit living within him. I belong to Christ and I can guarantee to you that my body is subject to entropy!
     
    #89 Helen, Oct 20, 2002
  10. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Irrespective of age, sin is inherent. It is in disposition as well as in commission or omission of acts. There are many scriptures supporting this thesis.

    Hence, infants are not exempt from the state of sin, and there can be no doubt that they sin even in infancy. We may not like to acknowledge this because babies are so "innocent and cute", but it is a fact of scripture, irrespective of theological design postulated. Numbers 15:28 speaks of sinning unwittingly, or as the KJV says, sinneth ignorantly..and this is still an act. Knowledge of a law does not matter.

    If one wants to hear a baby cry "sinfully" try skipping the mythical 2:AM feeding. It is well established, medically, that this feeding is unnecesary. Give the baby who, insists, a bottle of water and it will soon stop waking and crying at that hour.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    [ October 20, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]
     
    #90 Jim1999, Oct 20, 2002
  11. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Jim, crying at 2 a.m. is not a sin, it's inconvenient! When a baby is over about ten pounds, you can probably get him or her to sleep through the night by adding a little rice cereal at nine or ten o'clock.

    A baby may have a sin nature -- and I don't argue with that at all, but you show me which of the laws of God a baby can break. And it is the law that shows us what sin is....
     
    #91 Helen, Oct 20, 2002
  12. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Helen,

    That Was My Point..Literal Interpretations are Subject to Context..Gods Context.
    He's Perfect.. Sin Cannot Exist In His Presents. Imperfection Cannot Exist With Perfection.

    Jesus Being Born Of A Virgin and Havng a Body other Than This World (without Sin)
    Clearly Examples Gods Spirit Not Being Able To Live Inside The Construct of This Universe.

    Hence..Jesus Having ...A Pure Body...A Pure Spirit.

    Me2
     
    #92 Me2, Oct 20, 2002
  13. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Apology accepted, but perhaps it was the hour
    at which I was writing or the pain I was in. I did
    write "apparent," when I accused you, because
    I was not sure. A little more sleep helped some.
    But if that was not your idea, I apologize.

    But it is very apparent that those of you who
    claim that a child's crying is sinning sincerely
    do not understand children or have not consid-
    ered that it is survival, plain and simple, that
    causes a child to cry.

    To you, a 2 a.m. feeding may not be necessary,
    but that is not what an infant thinks. An infant
    has just left an environment with continuous
    womb service. Hunger is a new feeling, never
    felt before, because the infant had been contin-
    uously fed in the womb. Hunger is uncomfort-
    able, so in order to survive, the child cries until
    someone comes and gives milk. Some children
    get past that phase in days, and some take
    much longer.

    An infant cries when things are uncomfortable,
    when hurt, when frightened, etc., because our
    God gave them that ability to draw attention
    to themselves so that they can get their needs
    met in order to survive.

    I am sorry, but you guys who call crying sin are
    clearly wrong. 8o) That's just the way it is! 8o)
    But what disturbs me is that a child in your
    care may be neglected because you consider
    their actions "sin." I hope someone else is
    around to care for these precious little "sinners"
    so that they won't become warped!! 8o)

    [ October 20, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
    #93 Abiyah, Oct 20, 2002
  14. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Me2 --

    I don't know if this matters, but your posts are
    incredibly hard to read because you capitalize
    every word. i can't read them.

    As one gets older, the eyesight is one of the
    first things to show age. White space is very
    necessary, but your abundant caps cut down
    on the white space. --Just can't read your
    posts, although I am interested! 8o) At least
    you paragraph well! That helps!
     
    #94 Abiyah, Oct 20, 2002
  15. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Abiyah,
    Help Me,
    Im Possessed By A Demon That Types Badly...(hehe..just kidding)

    Ive looked at my typing for so long..Im even starting to not like it..
    It's become a habit and its very hard to stop.
    But for you guys....i'll teach myself how to type all over again.

    Thank you for your opinion...I think thats the final one that stops this habit.

    [​IMG]
    Me2
     
    #95 Me2, Oct 20, 2002
  16. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Me2 --

    You gave me my first laugh of the morning! It's
    about time I had a chuckle! It's past 10:30 a.m.
    here.

    Thank you! 8oD
     
    #96 Abiyah, Oct 20, 2002
  17. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Helen,
    Thank you for your replies.......
    You state *anger* in itself is not a sin. You state: "The Bible says "IN your anger, do not sin." It NEVER says anger is a sin."

    Jesus Himself stated:
    Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment : and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Scott replies,
    Obviously Christ believed that unwarranted anger is on the same level as murder, worthy of *THE* judgement......Sorry, but this anger, *without cause* equates to no less than sin. No other way around it.

    [ October 20, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
    #97 Scott_Bushey, Oct 20, 2002
  18. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Well, I might as well throw my hat into the ring on this one as well. The above quote, with all due respect to Grasshopper is not entirely accurate.

    Trying to blame Adam for subsequent sin is to fall into the same trap to which Adam himself fell.

    As for the salvation of children/infants, none of us are qualified to say:

    However, remember that Christ told His Disciples
    This is a picture of the Grace of salvation. Whether an infant sins or not, all sins are judged by the Son. Our God is just and I therefore trust His judgement in the case of those who are ignorant of any theology.
     
    #98 Clint Kritzer, Oct 20, 2002
  19. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Helen writes:
    A baby may have a sin nature -- and I don't argue with that at all, but you show me which of the laws of God a baby can break. And it is the law that shows us what sin is....

    Scott asks:
    Is *ignorance* of the law tantamount to being innocent from the law?

    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
     
    #99 Scott_Bushey, Oct 20, 2002
  20. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Further, as for the fall of Man in Genesis 3, Adam and Eve's nakedness existed BEFORE their awareness of it. It did not become "shame" until they had KNOWLEDGE as attained from ingesting the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

    Can we say that an infant is cognizant of what we view as sin?

    What we inherited from Adam was the AWARENESS of sin.

    [ October 20, 2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
    #100 Clint Kritzer, Oct 20, 2002
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